Jab’s Builds! (Lawnmower Man! Samus Aran! Metroids!)

[Shock]

I read the relationship as Tarkin was nominally in command, especially when it came to the Death Star, but Vader only followed orders when he felt like it.

"Vader, release him" was delivered like an order and Vader complied because he wasn't yet at the point where he could do as he pleased without consequences.

So I think we're mostly agreeing on that.

[Woodclaw]

One interesting bit about the Force Choke in the first movie is that the audience assumed it to be telekinesys, but it could as well be a different application of the Jedi Mind Trick. It's entirely possible that Vader is just causing a psychosomatic reaction into that guy.

[catsi563]

One interesting thing about Tarkin as well was the Tarkin Doctrine which I wish theyd showed more of in the movies, the Tarkin Doctrine was the idea Tarkin had in the military which actually brought him to palpatines attention in the first place and made him Grand Moff. it was the notion in a nutshell of using overwhelming firepower and military force to take control of the individual star systems and then by suing a symbol of Fear aka the Death Star a station with overwhelming firepower, basically cower all the systems into control after disbanding the senate

in a way ti was brilliant thinking. the individual systems stand alone and face this monstrosity of a station which can vaporize their homeworld if they don't comply as well as this massive fleet of ships which individually can devastate a planet

the irony is that his first choice of targets was absolutely the wrong one, By destroying Alderan a known peaceful planet with a very good reputation in the wider galaxy he literally lit a fire under the rebellion. shouts of remember Alderan and Alderan no more became rallying cries. Survivors of Alderan became rebel fighters overnight and multiple systems were outraged.

worse with the deathstars destruction which was in part caused by the rebels being put ond eath ground as Sun Tzu would warn the empire against doing. the galaxy saw the Empire as vulnerable if they couldn't even protect this planet killing weapon how could they protect anything?

if Tarkin had actually chosen a barren world or moon and vaporized it as a demonstration the rest of the galaxy would have been terrified of the possibility of the death star which is the literal heart of the Tarkin doctrine

ironically by actually unleashing the deathstar on Alderan he undercut his entire doctrine by instilling too much fear and putting the entire galaxy that they were on death ground and had no choice but to fight or die.

[Shock]

It's not really ironic. What happened is exactly what Leia told him would happen. "The more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers."

Peace through superior firepower isn't exactly a novel idea. It was sort of the foundation the Empire was built on. The Death Star was a nuke with no MAD theory to keep it in check.

[catsi563]

Well in way there was. the irony is if you actually read the tarkin doctrine as proposed by him the Deathstar was actually never supposed to be used save maybe as a demonstration. it was supposed to be a symbol of the fear which would keep the systems in line. basically destroy a unnamed moon or unoccupied planet and then let the legends and the terror grow on their own which the imperial navy could then use to control the systems via the sector moffs and governors

his destruction of Alderan was a mistake that ultimately cost the empire more in the long run

[Jabroniville]

The original Star Wars film is an amazing example of world-building, and there's all kinds of things you miss on the first viewing that you only catch on repeat watchings that paint this larger picture of the setting.

Just take the meeting with Tarkin, Vader and the rest of the Imperial High Command regarding the Death Star. We have a large round table where all the Imperials are seated . . . except for Vader. And not because their isn't a spot for him there's an empty chair for him to sit, but he instead stands, making it clear that while he is a part of the same organization, these people are not his peers. He doesn't care about the Death Star personally, and frankly finds it unimpressive, calling it a "technological terror" that the Imperials shouldn't feel too proud of. This why he defers to Tarkin in all matters regarding the Death Star itself: the Death Star isn't Vader's concerns, recovering the plans are. Vader is very willing to let Tarkin do whatever and not interfere so long as it doesn't jeopardize his own mission.

To further demonstrate the difference between Vader and the Imperials, we get that interaction the Moff who is mouthing off about how great the Death Star is. Vader, as stated, doesn't care about the Death Star, and chides the man about his arrogance. When the guy has the balls to insult Vader directly, Vader makes the first overt showcase of how the Force can directly affect another person physically, choking the man from across the room and delivering the amazing line of "I find your lack of faith disturbing". He only relents and lets the idiot live at Tarkin's order, though the manner in which he does so prevents Vader from looking weak. Vader basically dismisses the guy, having made his point, and again, because Tarkin is in charge of the Death Star itself.

I always get a chuckle out of that scene, as in my mind I hear Morgan Freeman saying, "Let me get this straight. You're talking to Darth Vader, one of the most powerful, feared and influential people in the entire galaxy, who is also a 7 foot tall cyborg who can outmuscle Wookies, and who you've heard rumors wields a laser sword that can cut through anything and who can move objects with his mind . . . and your plan is to INSULT this person? . . . Good luck."

When Tarkin enters, he mentions how the Emperor has officially dissolved the Senate, removing "the last remnants of the Old Republic", and when asked how the Emperor will maintain power without the bureaucracy, Tarkin states that it will be done by the regional governors loyal to the Emperor and fear of the Death Star. With a few lines of dialogue that don't come off as clunky, they establish quite a bit. They establish that the current government is ruled over by a single Emperor, that it use to be a Republic governed by the people before the Emperor came to power, that the Emperor is a really evil bastard and finally, it establishes the importance of the Death Star. It sets the stakes of why the heroes need to destroy it, because it is now the major method by which the Emperor will control the galaxy. It needs to be taken out if there will be any hope of the Rebellion to succeed.

The fact that the one rational Imperial is worried about the Death Star plans also should have been sufficient to excuse the idea about the Death Star having such a vulnerability. The only way to even find out about the weakness in the Death Star is with an entire technical readout of the station, and the only weak point is so heavily guarded and hard to exploit that you needed not only the best pilot in the Rebellion, but he needed to be Force Sensitive to boot. And much as I love Rogue One, I don't think they needed an entire film to explain away that weak point. Cars weren't designed with a flaw about how if you get a lit flame down this one small hole the entire car will explode, it's just there and you need to know about it to exploit it.

We get an amazing amount of info in a natural and entertaining way. However clunky some of Lucas' dialogue can be, the man knew how to world build and how to get that info across without disrupting the flow of the story.

Watching that scene for the first time in a decade here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNSnJbjdws

What's interesting is that JUST NOW the "last remnants of the Republic has been swept away", and they actually name-drop The Emperor, who I always forgot about as a kid until he finally showed up.

I like the paranoid, chubby Moff- the dude is the only one at the table who is 100% CORRECT, as he correctly infers that the Rebels are well-equipped and dangerous. The guy pooh-poohing his concerns is shown to be a fool when he taunts DARTH FREAKING VADER in front of everyone. He even mocks his "Sorcerer's Ways", which is probably the most explicit comparison of the Force-Users to "Space Wizards".

[Jabroniville]

THE REBELS
Role: Heroic Mooks
Group Affiliations: The Rebel Alliance
PL 4 (39)
STRENGTH 1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 3 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Athletics 3 (+4)
Expertise (Space Soldier) 5 (+5)
Ranged Combat (Blasters) 1 (+3)
Stealth 1 (+3)
Technology 2 (+2)
Vehicles 4 (+6)

Advantages:
Equipment 3 (Blaster +5- Multiattack)

Offense:
Unarmed +3 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Laser Blaster +3 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +3 (DC 13), Toughness +2, Fortitude +2, Will +2

Complications:
Responsibility (The Rebel Alliance)

Total: Abilities: 22 / Skills: 16--8 / Advantages: 3 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 6 (39)

-The Rebels in Star Wars are an interesting bunch- an organized, armed resistance against a near all-powerful Galactic Empire, headed by an Electrokinetic Dick Cheney, Darth Freaking Vader, and a Space Station that can shatter worlds. Due to reasons of budget and simplicity, the vast majority appear human, though you'll see the occasional Droid (a neat red "R-3PO" unit, and a lot of Astromechs). They're deliberately meant to evoke a "Ragtag Band of Misfits" approach, with mismatched gear, their faces showing, little by-the-book discipline, and more. Interestingly enough though, our main heroes ARE NOT the true leaders of the Rebellion- Mon Mothma is the overall leader, and the famous Admiral Ackbar is the military commander.

-Rebels aren't a mighty bunch, however- they often appear to be EVEN WEAKER than Imperial Stormtroopers, going down in droves to enemy attack. Really, the only COMPETENT rebels are the main cast of the Trilogy. It doesn't help that two of the most-powerful figures who resisted the rise of the Empire, Yoda & Obi-Wan Kenobi, disappeared into exile for years. Without Luke, Han & Leia, the Rebellion is screwed. PL 4 is good enough for the main troops. Rebel Pilots have a bit higher rank in Vehicles, as well as some neat ships.

[Shock]

I'm not sure I would call the Rebels incompetent. Every battle they're in has the odds stacked against them. It's mostly that they are at a huge disadvantage in equipment, numbers or both. The only pitched battle we see involving ground troops is on Hoth, where they never had a chance but they still manage to hold them off long enough to call it a successful evacuation. They even manage to take down a couple of walkers.

[catsi563]

I'm not sure I would call the Rebels incompetent. Every battle they're in has the odds stacked against them. It's mostly that they are at a huge disadvantage in equipment, numbers or both. The only pitched battle we see involving ground troops is on Hoth, where they never had a chance but they still manage to hold them off long enough to call it a successful evacuation. They even manage to take down a couple of walkers.

agreed. rebel troopers were in many ways as well trained and in a few cases as well equipped as any imperial soldier. the main issue though is they were up against a VERY MASSIVE military force that had near endless resources to throw at them and a naval force that could devastate planet surfaces from orbit. the battle of hoth is a prime example of what the rebels were up against on most planets. evne with Luke aiding them they still were out gunned and overrun.

the Rebels strengths were their mobile structure which meant the empire couldn't wipe them out in a single blow and the superiority of their star fighters which were canonically superior to the empires Ties in several ways. even then though they faced a massive numerical disadvantage which can be rough for even a seasoned army to overcome

[Jabroniville]

ADMIRAL ACKBAR (Gial Ackbar)
Role: Trap-Noticer, Space Admiral
Group Affiliations: The Rebel Alliance
PL 3 (69), PL 5 (73) Saves & Skills)
STRENGTH 1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 1
FIGHTING 2 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Deception 2 (+6)
Expertise (Military) 11 (+15)
Insight 1 (+5)
Persuasion 2 (+6)
Technology 4 (+8)
Vehicles 4 (+6)

Advantages:
Benefit 4 (Supreme Commander of Alliance Forces), Inspire, Leadership, Ultimate Military Skill

Powers:
"Mon Calimari Physiology"
Immunity 2 (Drowning, Cold) [2]
Swimming 2 [2]
"Swivel Eyes" Senses 2 (Low-Light Vision, Radius Sight) [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +2 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Initiative +1

Defenses:
Dodge +4 (DC 14), Parry +3 (DC 13), Toughness +2, Fortitude +4, Will +6

Complications:
Responsibility (The Rebellion)- Once a slave of Grand Moff Tarkin, Ackbar is now a devoted enemy of The Empire.
Vulnerable (Deep Water)- Though they are strong swimmers and can breathe water, Mon Calimari cannot delve too far down (up to 30 meters, mainly)

Total: Abilities: 40 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 6 / Defenses: 8 (73)

-Ackbar is one of the great things about Star Wars: Why NOT have a fish-headed guy with a weird voice as the overall commander for the Rebel Alliance's spacefaring operations? He was supposed to be more humanoid, but Lucas decided to make him an alien, and allowed the director of ROTJ, Richard Marquand, choose from a series of designs. The voice was invented on the spot by his VA (who died between The Force Awakens and the next film, necessitating a replacement), and the puppeteer insisted on playing him as soon as he saw the sculpt.

-And I still like the idea that while our heroes are the BEST Rebels, they're not actually in command- Ackbar calls the shots in the mass battle against the second Death Star. Getting only three minutes and thirty seconds of screentime between three feature films, he's since become most famous for the meme like "It's a TRAP!!", when he realizes that the Death Star is operational. In the Sequel Trilogy, he's killed without a word in the destruction of the bridge of Princess Leia's command ship- one of the minor things that pissed people off of that trilogy. His son, appearing to be at a different larval stage or something, is apparently the Mon Calamari seen in The Rise of Skywalker.

-Mon Calamari are from an aquatic world, and are apparently the premier explorers of the galaxy, sporting the biggest Non-Empire ships. As such, their massive cruisers are the backbone of the Rebel Alliance fleet in major space-battles.

-He's got a pretty simple build, being a Military Commander who isn't seen kicking ass (I assume his EU history is FULL of such activities, however), but he's the best guy to lead the Alliance in combat.

[Jabroniville]

MON MOTHMA
Role: Secretive Rebel Leader
Group Affiliations: The Rebel Alliance

-Mon Mothma is an incredibly minor character in the original trilogy, to the point where I didn't even remember her at all, but is actaully the overall leader of the Rebel Alliance! Leia was merely a high-ranking official, but Mothma was the former politician who became a revolutionary leader. Frequently speaking out against both the Clone Wars and Palpatine's grabs for power, she finally abandoned her position and became a hidden rebel commander. In the Expanded Universe, she is elected the first chancellor of the New Republic. Her expanded roles after the original trilogy includes appearances in Rebels, Clone Wars and Rogue One.

[Jabroniville]

I'm not sure I would call the Rebels incompetent. Every battle they're in has the odds stacked against them. It's mostly that they are at a huge disadvantage in equipment, numbers or both. The only pitched battle we see involving ground troops is on Hoth, where they never had a chance but they still manage to hold them off long enough to call it a successful evacuation. They even manage to take down a couple of walkers.

Well not quite INCOMPETENT, but definitely screwed if they didn't have any help from Luke, Leia, Han, etc. Everyone who isn't a major character typically dies in droves.

[Jabroniville]

WEDGE ANTILLES
Role: Elite Heroic Mook
Group Affiliations: The Rebel Alliance
PL 7 (108)
STRENGTH 1 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 5 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+5)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Space Soldier) 9 (+11)
Insight 1 (+4)
Perception 5 (+8)
Ranged Combat (Blasters) 4 (+8)
Stealth 1 (+5)
Technology 4 (+6)
Vehicles 10 (+14)

Advantages:
Equipment 22 (Blaster +5- Multiattack, X-Wing), Improved Aim, Languages (Various), Ultimate Vehicles Skill

Offense:
Unarmed +5 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Laser Blaster +8 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +9 (DC 19), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +3, Fortitude +5, Will +6

Complications:
Responsibility (The Rebel Alliance)
Relationship (Lots of Chicks)- He gets around Post-Galactic Civil War. That'll happen when you're an Official Canon character who isn't just cannon fodder.
Responsibility (Ego)- For a fighter pilot, ego is part of the job description.

Total: Abilities: 50 / Skills: 40--20 / Advantages: 25 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 13 (108)

-Wedge is one of those weird guys who basically serves little purpose in the film series beyond "that guy who gets a name and doesn't die", which of course in the Expanded Universe means OH MY GOD LOOK AT ALL HIS GODDAMN CHARACTER HISTORY WHAT THE SHIT. Seriously, look at all this. The EU is CRAZY for stuff like that, in particular because his limited role leaves so much room for expanded backstory, and because he SURVIVES, he gets to see all of what the new universe of the novels contains. So he's ideal for writers to grab a "recognizable/he counts in the movies so it's not my Mary Sue PC this time I swear" type of guy and go crazy with him.

-His character kinda bounced around in early drafts apparently (a "Hot-Shot Fighter Pilot" was going to be nicknamed "Chewie", but that name ended up going to the monster dude), and seemed like he was supposed to get a bigger role- he isn't even given a FULL NAME in the movie (it's only in the script), nor is he played by a consistent actor (two men play the role, but only one voices him)! His actor was surprised to be invited back to shoot Empire, because he thought his character had DIED in the first movie! In the movies, his only real stuff is "doesn't die" and "we fired the first actor, so now there's a guy called Fake Wedge because he's in one scene". His limited role and "Everyman" nature make him one of the few "normal" people in the cast, which I think is part of his appeal.

-Wedge is a fantastic pilot, owing to his being the only guy to survive BOTH Death Star runs- with his X-Wing he's one of the best in the galaxy. He's much more limited on the ground, but will still do okay- way beyond most Mooks.

[Shock]

Wedge was also the one that found Luke and Han on Hoth and was the first to take down an Imperial walker with the tow cable. And he got shots in on the second death star power core right alongside the Falcon. That's a pretty good set of accomplishments for a side character

[Ares]

Wedge is the kind of guy that the Extended Universe really benefited, because there's more room to explore them. As has been shown, if someone gives the wrong take to a character with a lot of established screen time, the fans will notice and not react well. But someone like Wedge has a lot of room for development. Which is naturally why he got so much use in the EU, though giving him his own series with Rogue Squadron was just a smart move. Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie and Lando get to focus on the big galactic stuff while Wedge gets to do all the cool fighter pilot stuff.

It's also kind of cool because I imagine those image markers for ships shot down, and Luke, Han and Lando all have one Death Star Icon on their ships while Wedge has two, with this super smug look on his face.