Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Woodclaw
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Star Wars- Stormtroopers! Rebels! Adm. Ackbar! Wedge!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Shock wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:51 pm Wedge was also the one that found Luke and Han on Hoth and was the first to take down an Imperial walker with the tow cable. And he got shots in on the second death star power core right alongside the Falcon. That's a pretty good set of accomplishments for a side character
Ares wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:28 pm Wedge is the kind of guy that the Extended Universe really benefited, because there's more room to explore them. As has been shown, if someone gives the wrong take to a character with a lot of established screen time, the fans will notice and not react well. But someone like Wedge has a lot of room for development. Which is naturally why he got so much use in the EU, though giving him his own series with Rogue Squadron was just a smart move. Luke, Han, Leia, Chewie and Lando get to focus on the big galactic stuff while Wedge gets to do all the cool fighter pilot stuff.

It's also kind of cool because I imagine those image markers for ships shot down, and Luke, Han and Lando all have one Death Star Icon on their ships while Wedge has two, with this super smug look on his face.
I agree with all of this. In fact I was kind of surprised that he didn't show up in Rogue One, since it would have been a great insert. Too bad that Rebels made him look like an idiot more often than not.

Two funny little trivias:
  1. Dennis Lawson (the actor portraying Wedge) is the real life uncle of Ewan McGregor.
  2. In Fantasy Flight Games's X-Wing miniature game Wedge has the highest piloting skill in the entire game (matched only by Darth Vader and Han Solo), meaning that he would move after and fire before any other pilot in the game, making him real pain in the rear for the Imperial players (also pretty much any SW RPG list his piloting skills at almost Force-enhanced levels).
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KorokoMystia
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Star Wars- Stormtroopers! Rebels! Adm. Ackbar! Wedge!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

I think Wedge even managed to appear in Rise of Skywalker, but it was pretty much almost a "blink and you'll miss it" cameo.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Star Wars- Stormtroopers! Rebels! Adm. Ackbar! Wedge!)

Post by catsi563 »

KorokoMystia wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:02 pm I think Wedge even managed to appear in Rise of Skywalker, but it was pretty much almost a "blink and you'll miss it" cameo.
He does hes in the final battle of Exogal commanding one of the alliance ships also as I understand it one of the pilots who dies is his son
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Luke Skywalker

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

LUKE SKYWALKER
Role:
The Prototypical Young Hero
Group Affiliations: None
PL 11 (214), PL 12 (214) With the Dark Side
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+12)
Athletics 9 (+11)
Close Combat (Lightsaber) 3 (+14)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Soldier) 7 (+8)
Insight 4 (+7)
Investigation 3 (+6)
Perception 8 (+11)
Persuasion 3 (+6)
Stealth 2 (+7)
Technology 4 (+5)
Vehicles 8 (+13)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Diehard, Equipment 3 (Blaster +5, Assorted Gear), Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Lightsaber) 2, Improved Defense 2, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative 2, Improved Smash, Interpose, Languages (A Few), Luck, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 6, Seize Initiative, Takedown 2, Teamwork, Uncanny Dodge

Powers:
"Mastery of The Force"
"Force Senses"
Senses 12 (Detect The Force- Ranged 5, Detect Life- Ranged 5) [12]
Senses 4 (Precognition) (Flaws: Uncontrolled) [2]
Enhanced Skill 2: Vehicles 2 (+15) [1]
Enhanced Advantages 5: Defensive Roll 2, Improved Aim, Precise Attack 2 (Ranged/Cover, Close/Concealment) [5]

"Force-Assisted Movement"
Leaping 1 (15 feet) [1]
Speed 2 (8 mph) [2]

"Jedi Laser Deflection" Deflect 12 (Extras: Multiattack, Reflect, Redirection) (Flaws: Limited to Lasers, Lightsaber-Based, Multiattack Requires Multiple Lasers -1/2) (18) -- [22]
  • AE: "Use The Force" Move Object 8 (Feats: Subtle) (Diminished Range -1) (16)
  • AE: "Force Push" Damage 2 (Feats: Subtle) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cone +1/2) Linked to Affliction 7 (Strength; Hindered & Vulnerable/Prone & Stunned) (Feats: Subtle) (Extras: Extra Condition, Area- 30ft. Cone +1/2) (Flaws: Limited Degree) (15.5)
  • AE: "Jedi Mind Trick" Affliction 6 (Will; Dazed/Compelled) (Feats: Subtle) (Extras: Area- Audio Perception, Selective) (Flaws: Limited Degree) (13)
  • AE: Communication (Mental) 2 (8)
"Channel the Dark Side"
Enhanced Strength 1 [2]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Close Attack 1 [1]
Enhanced Skills 4: Intimidation 4 (+7) [2]

"Lightsaber" (Flaws: Easily Removable) (Feats: Restricted to Those Trained) [9]
Strength-Damage +6 (Extras: Penetrating 7) (13 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Lightsaber +14 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Dark Side Unarmed +12 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Dark Side Lightsaber +15 (+9 Damage, DC 24)
Laser Blaster +11 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Force Push +2-6 Area (+2 Damage & +7 Affliction, DC 12 & 17)
Mind Trick +6 Area (+6 Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +13

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +14 (DC 24), Toughness +4 (+6 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +11

Complications:
Relationship (Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda)- Luke treats both as mentors, but Obi-Wan as more of a father-figure.
Enemy (Darth Vader)- Luke wants Vader to pay for the death of Obi-Wan, but is also afraid of the man. When it turns out that Vader is Luke's FATHER, things only get complicated further. He views facing Vader (who's defeated him before) as his greatest challenge, but wants to see the good in him at the same time.
Motivation (Defeating the Empire)- A humble Moisture Farmer, Luke finally "Heard the Call", and once the Empire killed his adoptive parents, he's been devoted to stopping their evil once and for all.
Relationship (Han Solo, Chewbacca, Princess Leia, C-3PO, R2-D2)- Luke is devoted to his friends- when he fears their deaths in Cloud City, he abandons his training with Yoda in order to save them, despite assurances that he will suffer for doing so.
Responsibility (The Dark Side)- The Dark Side is dangerously-close for all Jedi. Using the "Channel the Dark Side Powers", using Dark Side-like powers (like strangling someone with The Force, or crushing them internally), killing defeated foes or otherwise killing needlessly, and even using All-Out or Power Attack too often can lead the Jedi down a dark path. The Dark Side is "quicker, EASIER- more seductive," and the temporary boost of power can easily tempt one. Excessive use of the Dark Side will twist one's spirit, and mangle their body. Luke in particular is in constant danger from giving in to anger when facing his father.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 60--30 / Advantages: 35 / Powers: 59 / Defenses: 22 (214)

Luke- The Hero's Journey:
-Luke Skywalker (originally "Starkiller") is of course The Hero, and the cog around which the entire Original Trilogy revolves. He starts off as this Bored Farmboy, but Hears The Call when he uncovers a Droid with a random message from this "Princess Leia" chick. He goes to get his "Uncle Ben Kenobi" for help, and ends up discovering both his heritage and his destiny- his father was a Jedi Knight, and he himself has access to the same powers. Soon his adoptive parents are killed (they're pretty much never mentioned again- Luke seems WAY more attached to Ben), and there's no going back- he joins Ben/Obi-Wan and some mercenaries on a suicidal rescue mission, watches Obi-Wan die against this Darth Vader guy, and soon Luke "Uses The Force" to fire the last shot in the battle which destroys the Death Star. The Farmboy is now an intergalactic hero.

-The two sequels show off more development, as he learns more of the philosophy behind the Jedi, gathers some XP, enters some hardcore training from the Jedi Master Yoda, loses his hand against Vader (who then shocks the world by declaring "I AM YOUR FATHER!"), and is at his lowest... but comes roaring back in Return of the Jedi, which sees this full-fledged warrior annihilate the bad guys, finally defeat the arch-villain Vader in solo combat... but then denies the chance to gain revenge, refusing to slay his fallen father. Instead, he tells The Emperor "I am a Jedi, like my FATHER before me..." and thus witnesses his father's redemption, and avoids falling to the Dark Side by slaying a helpless foe.

-Luke is a good character with an excellent Character Arc, but is rarely anyone's favorite character from what I've seen. Most people generally-prefer the more rogueish Han Solo (who himself has a great Character Arc), or naturally gravitate towards Darth Vader- it's easy to see a pretty generic "Hero Character" as less-dynamic. And that's DESPITE the fact that being a Jedi was all any kid wanted to be for like ten years after these movies came out! Hell, they're STILL the most-iconic part of the franchise, beating Droids, Wookiees, all sorts of damn aliens and more! It doesn't help that Mark Hammill... wasn't REALLY a great actor in these films. He seemed very wooden in the first, and often over-acts in the series- there's a reason that Harrison Ford & James Earl Jones had far more successful post-Star Wars careers than Hammill did, and that the Shakespearean types like Alec Guinness have more respect. That said, Hammil made a hell of a career for himself as a Voice Actor, where his overacting paid off in spades- he really learned how to utilize his voice as an instrument. And playing VILLAINS of all things!

Luke in the Sequel Trilogy:
-... hoo boy. I mean, Hammill himself more or less said "I'm with you guys" when fans complained about it, because he was saying before the second movie even came out that the writers saw Luke differently than he did. In The Last Jedi, Luke is depicted as an isolated shut-in, having cut himself off from the Force out of shame- turns out that years ago, he tried to start a new Jedi Order with Han & Leia's son Ben and others, but in a moment of weakness, feared Ben's inherent power, and was prepared to kill him. Unwilling to go through with it, he was nonetheless caught in the act by Ben, who turned to the Dark Side and went nuts. While Luke is... pretty easily believed as an impulsive person judging by the Original Trilogy, this seemed a BIT unreasonable for a much older man, and people kind of freaked a bit. It came off like they just needed an excuse for him to be away in the first movie (where he would have certainly overpowered the rest of the cast in terms of plot significance), and that's the best they could come up with- this weird "enh, so I guess he felt Ben might be evil and too strong).

-Though at least Hammill's upgraded acting was on display- he completely overshadowed poor Daisy Ridley, acted like a snarky jerk, and lectured her in the classic ways of Jedi Masters. He chides Rey for her seeking of power and her reckless nature, and generally shows a ton of range. And in the end, he shows an exceptional new Force Power- projecting an illusory image of himself across the galaxy, which ultimately causes his death. This moment saves the Resistance and comes off as a worthy sacrifice to me (and allows the newbies their place in the sun, which seems like an important thread throughout the Originals, much as fans wanted it to be "the Original Cast Kicking Ass"). Most shamefully, however, is that Hammill does about zero interactions with the other characters- it's like nobody cared enough to have THE FRICKIN' ORIGINAL CAST get back together- Hammill himself had to improvise a bit with C-3PO, because he was like "Well Luke has to do SOMETHING!".

Luke's Powers:
-Luke Skywalker's PL could be all over the place- I was gonna make him PL 10, but on further thought, I went with PL 11. PL 10 makes him about the same level as Daredevil and The Punisher- he feels higher to me. If he were a Marvel character, he'd easily fit in with The Avengers. At PL 11, he can demolish Stormtroopers & Palace Guards, face off against monsters like Darth Vader, and stand out as the greatest warrior of the Rebel Alliance. Even BEFORE his training with Yoda, he was strong enough to one-shot an Abominable Snow Monster! He's still PL 10 on defense, though- going All-Out Attack generally isn't a good idea with him. I figure him for PL 7-8-ish in Star Wars, PL 9-10 in Empire (where Vader handily defeats him after controlling the entire fight), and finally hits PL 11 as a full-fledged Jedi in ROTJ. Luke isn't that strong (it's a fairly Low-ST Universe, here), but packs great accuracy with one of the most-lethal weapons in the galaxy- especially since few characters are really great Parry-fighters in the series (most haven't faced a Lightsaber in decades).

-I needed to build Luke first, as he's pretty much the definitive Jedi, with more Force Powers than most (though as the franchise has expanded, so has the number of Force Powers)- he's the template by which you can judge all of the others. As you'll see, he's a fair bit more powerful than most other Jedi Knights in the Prequels, though sometimes that can be tricky to assess, as improvements in filming, special effects, fight choreography and more all add up to make Luke seem like a rather un-dynamic, slow fighter in these Late '70s/Early '80s films, especially compared with the Hyper-Acrobatics of people like Darth Maul, Yoda and more. But I figure Luke and Jedi like him for less-flashy, but more-effective fighters- all that flash and jumpy-rolly nonsense from other Jedi lacks the substance of a good old-fashioned accurate Force User (you'll note how Count Dooku wasn't acrobatic, but was a high-tier swordfighter all the same). And in terms of raw power with The Force, Luke is high-tier, which can make a huge difference.
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Arkrite
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Re: Admiral Ackbar

Post by Arkrite »

Jabroniville wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:29 am ADMIRAL ACKBAR (Gial Ackbar)
Ackbar was a standout character in ROTJ for me, largely because he stood out. He was odd looking, he had an interesting voice, and of course his most famous line which is the source of many memes.

I think we were robbed when he was unceremoniously offed to give access to other characters (who will not be named until they are posted as per Jab's request) to be in charge.

Had Ackbar survived (maybe sent somewhere else we could have had a great scene in the final movie.
The surviving heroes are being chased through space, Poe at the controls, attempting to hide in an asteroid field while being chased by the First Order. They almost make it only to seemingly be surrounded.
The enemy opens up a channel to speak them them "This is your first and only chance to surrender. You have thirty seconds to power down your shields and-" ::The screens on the Star Destroyer suddenly light up as dots start appearing everwhere, the commander looks over at an officer and asks with the channel still open:: "What is this?"
"It's a trap." -Admiral Ackbar, smugly notes.

::Cue ships coming out of hiding in the asteroid field and epic space battle starts::

Or maybe I'm just nuts.
Jabroniville wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:20 am MON MOTHMA
I was always curious who Mon Mothma was during the movies, I never did have any idea who she was. Just that she was important.


Jabroniville wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:34 pm WEDGE ANTILLES
Ah Wedge.
I always kind of enjoyed Wedge.
He was great trivia question: Name one character who's in every movie of the original series who isn't one of the main characters.

I also have a soft spot in my head- err, heart for the X-Wing series of books, so I've always kind of enjoyed the character. Even though there wasn't much there.
But I love underdog characters and this guy has nothing keeping him around in these movies, and yet he survives the Death Star run (barely any ships come back from that one), and then winds up coming back for a second Death Star and survives again.
These days I'd expect them to off him just because.
Thankfully he's kind of forgotten in the new movies.

Wedge Lives! ;~)
KorokoMystia wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:02 pm I think Wedge even managed to appear in Rise of Skywalker, but it was pretty much almost a "blink and you'll miss it" cameo.
Uh... maybe I'm wrong?
Hopefully Wedge Lives! ;~)
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

The one part I really liked about Luke in the sequel trilogy is when he and Kylo confront one another

Kylo: Did you come back to say you forgive me? To save my soul?

Luke Skywalker : No.



Just the inflection of how he says that and the look on his face. I loved that.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

and it totally should have been Ackbar going out like a mack
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by Ares »

Luke Skywalker was and remains my favorite Star Wars character, period. He starts out as this farm kid who is bored and wants to be a part of something bigger, wants to do something to help, but is also attached to the Aunt and Uncle who raised him. When they're killed, that galvanizes him to want to be a hero. The second film has him grow and mature, facing actual failure and being shown how much he has to learn and grow, up until his face down with Darth Vader.

It really cannot be undersold how big a reveal the whole "I am your father" thing was, as well as seeing Luke confidently confront Vader and get his ASS KICKED. I mean, outside of surprising Vader once or twice, Luke was completely out of his depth. You rarely see the hero of the film genuinely fail and get beaten down like Luke was. The reveal that Vader was his father basically destroyed Luke's entire perception of himself. Remember, this was the kid who idealized his dad, the idea of the fallen Jedi that Vader had betrayed and murdered, he spent his entire life trying to life up to the idea of his dad . . . only to find out that his dad was really the second greatest villain in the universe.

If anything was going to break Luke, that would have been it. That was his "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" moment where he is hit with something that completely turns his world upside down, and his only two options are to become broken by it, or to rise above it. So when Luke returns in Return of the Jedi, he's lost all of his impulsiveness, his naivety, even a little of his youthful idealism. Instead we get a calmer, more controlled person who still loves his friends, wants to the right thing, believes there is good in people, believes in redemption and is a genuinely good person. He has gone from the kid who wanted to leave for some big adventure to a Jedi who wants to build something better for the galaxy.

And speaking of Jedi, if I had to make a top 5 list, Luke would be number 1 easily, followed by Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi being tied for second, Plo Koon in 4th place and Qui-Gon Jin for 5th.

The whole adventure at Jabba's palace really illustrates how far Luke had come since Empire. Luke essentially created this multi-layered plan to rescue his friend. He has Lando infiltrate the place to gather intel. He sends 3PO and R2 to sneak his weapon inside and has Leia bring in a captured Chewie to put Han and Chewie in close proximity, and give Leia a chance to get Han out on her own. Then he shows up, and gives Jabba every opportunity to surrender and end things peacefully. And when Jabba refuses, Luke then has no problem setting things into motion that ends with Jabba's death. Basically, Luke had things set up so that if Lando or Leia could have escaped with Han, then perfect. If they couldn't, Luke has grown up on Tatooine and knows that Jabba likes to toss people into the Sarlac Pit. His attempt to shoot Jabba was suppose to enrage him enough for said execution, but Luke apparently hadn't realized Jabba had recently added a Rancor to his place. Still, he escapes, and everyone is in place for when the time comes.

It shows Luke is capable of planning ahead and still willing to end things peacefully, but will absolutely kill you if you refuse him enough. A far cry from the kid that bumbled his way into the Death Star's detention center and needed Leia to help rescue him after he rescued her.

Luke's ability to redeem his father also showcases just how good a person he is, how he is able to actually see the best parts of people and try to bring it out of them. You'll note he never makes any similar offer to the Emperor, because there's no good in that black pit of evil. But by reaching out to Vader, by forgiving him, by appealing to him and remind him of who he use to be, of the best parts of his old life, Luke is able to find the Anakin Skywalker inside of Darth Vader.

I didn't enjoy everything in the EU, I felt it did a lot to expand on him, show him building a genuinely good Jedi Order that largely avoided the mistakes of the past, found love with Mara Jade, and became the kind of hero Anakin should have been. EU Luke could easily make a case for PL 13 or 14.

I also don't think tapping into the Dark Side necessarily makes Luke stronger, but I'll get into that when I make a post about the Force in general.

So yeah, Luke Skywalker is my favorite Star Wars character . . . which is why I REALLY didn't care for what the Sequel Trilogy did with him. And that's all I'll say about that.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Shock
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by Shock »

The thing that really sucked for Luke in the sequel trilogy is they skipped past the prime of his life. He went from just really starting to get it in Return of the Jedi into Broken Old Man in sequels. We never really get to see him in the prime of his life, in full command of his Jedi powers. His moment of weakness in the Last Jedi is really disappointing, He found Good in Darth Vader "Dark Lord of the Sith" but he gave up on Ben Solo, son of his two best friends in the galaxy? :cry:

Luke was the best part of the EU for me. He was confident, wise, in control and he had a plan to rebuild the Jedi. The stories weren't always great but when the writers got him, it was awesome.
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Arkrite
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Re: Luke Skywalker

Post by Arkrite »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:18 am LUKE SKYWALKER
Luke was my favorite character. I could relate, growing up in the middle of nowhere on a farm.
I could imagine being this kid who got the call, who struggled to accomplish his goals, failed and tried again.

I dreamed of being a Jedi, having my own lightsabre... also having Han's ship. Sue me, the ship was cool! ;~)
And an x-wing.
I'm greedy.

As for the later movies... Okay, I'm going to try to be positive. There's so much negativity, and Star Wars wasn't about negativity when I was a kid. it was hope and wonder.

So something positive:

Mark has noted that this character isn't his Luke, and has referred to this character as Jake Skywalker.
And what impresses me is that in spite of how very upset Mark Hammel seemed at the situation? He didn't phone it in. I thought he did a great job of acting for the scenes he was in, and he was the character I was wanting to see more of. Not just because I wanted to see Luke's triumphant return, but because he stole every scene he was in.
I really appreceate how much effort he put in, I'm not sure I could have done the same in his position, and I would love to have the chance to shake his hand, tell him I'm sorry that it happened, but that he was a professional and I respect and admire that.

And his Joker. That's always fun ;~)
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Image

As regards "Luke runs away from his failure", I agree with the meme pointing out that it's kind of one of those things Jedi do. Charitably, it's a matter of that they recognize that the Force means they can do great and terrible things, so when they fail, they try to remove themselves from the situation so they don't make it worse. One can also see it as a reflection of trying to avoid the hubris of the Jedi in the prequel trilogy.

Another iconic "Luke" moment for me was his appearance on the Muppet show, him and his "cousin Mark" just to maintain the kayfabe that Luke was a real person, apart from Mark Hamill.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by Ares »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:47 am Image

As regards "Luke runs away from his failure", I agree with the meme pointing out that it's kind of one of those things Jedi do. Charitably, it's a matter of that they recognize that the Force means they can do great and terrible things, so when they fail, they try to remove themselves from the situation so they don't make it worse. One can also see it as a reflection of trying to avoid the hubris of the Jedi in the prequel trilogy.
. . . except that meme is complete horseshit.

Luke Skywalker in the Sequel Trilogy had unintentionally turned his nephew to the Dark Side, had his entire group of students killed, and for this failure he decided to exile himself to this unfindable planet and wanted to just wallow in misery until he died.

Obi-Wan and Yoda watched as Anakin Skywalker was twisted to the Dark Side and 99% of the Jedi Order were wiped out by the most massive army the galaxy had ever seen, and even then they tried to take out both Palpatine and Anakin before they could cement their control of the universe. It was only after it was clear that they were in an unwinnable situation that the pair exiled themselves, but they did so with the express purpose to one day help overthrow the Empire. They were part of the initial group that would form the Rebellion, and promised to help said Rebellion when the time came.

Obi-Wan was protecting Luke because Luke would have similar Force Potential as Anakin, and could be trained into the kind of Jedi Anakin could have been. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda were in exile for a purpose, with a plan to eventually return balance to the galaxy. Luke Skywalker were in exile because he wanted to ignore the problems of the galaxy and die alone.

From what we can tell in the sequel films, there was no Empire when Kylo Ren destroyed the New Jedi Order Luke had built and the First Order was in its infancy. There was no overwhelming army that had taken control of the galaxy, no unwinnable situation, nothing to push Luke away apart from his own guilt over a stupid mistake that Rian "The Expectation Subverter" Jonsen forced on him. Luke had every opportunity to find Kylo, make the situation right, and nip the First Order in the bud before it became a major problem for the galaxy. Instead, he exiles himself for over a decade, lets the galaxy go to shit, and has to be dragged out of his retirement kicking and screaming.

That image is fundamental misunderstanding of what Obi-Wan and Yoda did, and how different it was than what Sequel Trilogy Luke did.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Monark Starstalker! Yie Ar Kung-Fu! Star Wars!)

Post by slade the sniper »

Ares wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:00 am Regarding Stormtroopers, I never really saw them as being as bad as pop culture has turned them into. It's basically been a meme since the 70s that they can't hit the broad side of a barn, but that didn't really become a thing until certain creators actually decided to embrace the meme. In the original trilogy, the Stormtroopers are basically super effective against anyone that isn't a main character, and even then they put the heroes in danger quite often.

The meme basically comes from the Stormtroopers not being able to prevent the heroes from escaping the original Deathstar with Princess Leia. I never got that reasoning because the movie states that the Empire let them go. Both Leia, Tarkin and Vader make it clear that they were allowed to escape, with the implications being that the troopers were ordered to put up a believable fight but to let them go. And they were convincing enough that Han Solo was fooled. When they weren't under orders to let the prisoners go, the Troopers showed that they could hit the heroes. They cut the initial Rebel resistance on the Blockade Runner to pieces despite the Rebels having a perfect choke point, they tagged Leia with a stun blast, they kept the heroes pinned down constantly during their escape from the Deathstar while letting them go, they bulldozed the Rebels during the Hoth invasion, they tagged Leia twice during Return of the Jedi, and being a Jedi was all that kept Luke from getting killed when he was deflecting blaster bolts from one.

Pound for pound it was clear that the average Stormtrooper was way more dangerous than the average Rebel soldier. And interestingly, the fact that the Ewoks gave Stormtroopers trouble never said "Stormtroopers suck", it meant that "Ewoks are dangerous". I don't know, maybe I'm the perfect target audience for Star Wars.

Regarding Stormtrooper armor, the general perspective I get is that blaster technology has outstripped armor technology by a bit. You need rare Mandalorian metals to be completely blaster proof on metal alone, and otherwise you need some kind of ray shielding to be immune to blasters. That said, Stormtrooper armor in the source material is suppose to be good, but I can't actually stop a blaster bolt. It could make a potentially lethal shot survivable and a bad injury less severe, but if you get hit it's going to hurt. It's likely that the armor works better against most civilian blasters, but the heroes gear is either military grade or the black market equivalent of military grade. It helps that it's hard to know which troopers are dead and which are just stunned or injured. The armor also comes with other features like filters and other things.

So yeah, in the games I run, Stormtroopers are actually dangerous.
I fully endorse this message. It does seem strange that heroes can tank a blaster bolt, but dudes in armor go down. Maybe that is part of their man-down drill, as in, just drop to the ground and lay there. I don't know why they would do that.

Plus, some blasters cause casualties without hitting their targets...why? I have no idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c3for38xiE Star Wars: when blasters kill without hitting (higher power settings...)
catsi563 wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:04 am Im much the same Storm troopers in my games are a clear sign the heroes are in deep doodoo.

the troopers armor is highly effective and actually does filter toxins and smoke as welll as having range finders and targeting sensors in it to improve their accuracy and squad firing capabilities.

a good example is to use the D6 version

Classic Stormtroopers have 3D dex plus 2D blaster skill
they have 2D Str

their E-11 blaster rifle is a 5d damage

their armor is +2D against physical attacks and +2D against Energy attacks normally the armor imposes a -1d penalty on dex for the wearer

but my Storm troopers have a skill that allows them to bypass that limitation since they train in the armor all the time.

So on average Stormtroopers will roll 17 which on the Difficulty table is a difficult roll and will almost always hit at short to medium range add in their target finders which eliminate cover from smoke and other impediments and you have a lethal marksmen if the pcs don't dodge

their armor gives them an average of 14 on toughness rolls which means they can survive most 4D blasters and against their own E-11s which are an average damage roll of 17 means they only fail by 3 which is a stunned result and not fatal on average.

the average ewok has a 2d str and a club does about +1-2d so figure theyre hitting for 10-14 meaning on average that the troopers armor protects them unless the ewoks dogpile them enmasse like they did or use the bolos which are dangerous even to armored soldiers today.

As for the rebels on the blockade runner youre dealing with people with more then likely a 2d str and a blast vest which is 1d vs engery for 3 dice to resist 10 on basic toughness roll on average vs an average 17 which is a fail by 7 and results in a wounded state which means they fall prone and cant take an action for the rest of the round

long story short on average the Stormtroopers are a dangerous foe to face even for heroic characters especially in numbers when they use tactics and advance like a freakin bulldozer which they do
The WEG D6 Stormtroopers were some competent dudes, especially the Snowtroopers... A lot of Stormtrooper fail seems to come from a lack of tactics. When Stormtroopers really shine is when they assault the Tantive IV and on Hoth. They wreck Rebel troopers...

I love using the stunned condition, as it kind of explains all the pratfalls.

As for the Ewoks....I...just...can't...

Other stuff:
Wedge is awesome
Stormtroopers and Clonetroopers in D20 were also badasses.

Finally: Thank you, I love this :)

-STS
sirjolt
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by sirjolt »

Ares wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:31 am
FuzzyBoots wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:47 am Image

As regards "Luke runs away from his failure", I agree with the meme pointing out that it's kind of one of those things Jedi do. Charitably, it's a matter of that they recognize that the Force means they can do great and terrible things, so when they fail, they try to remove themselves from the situation so they don't make it worse. One can also see it as a reflection of trying to avoid the hubris of the Jedi in the prequel trilogy.
. . . except that meme is complete horseshit.

Luke Skywalker in the Sequel Trilogy had unintentionally turned his nephew to the Dark Side, had his entire group of students killed, and for this failure he decided to exile himself to this unfindable planet and wanted to just wallow in misery until he died.

Obi-Wan and Yoda watched as Anakin Skywalker was twisted to the Dark Side and 99% of the Jedi Order were wiped out by the most massive army the galaxy had ever seen, and even then they tried to take out both Palpatine and Anakin before they could cement their control of the universe. It was only after it was clear that they were in an unwinnable situation that the pair exiled themselves, but they did so with the express purpose to one day help overthrow the Empire. They were part of the initial group that would form the Rebellion, and promised to help said Rebellion when the time came.

Obi-Wan was protecting Luke because Luke would have similar Force Potential as Anakin, and could be trained into the kind of Jedi Anakin could have been. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda were in exile for a purpose, with a plan to eventually return balance to the galaxy. Luke Skywalker were in exile because he wanted to ignore the problems of the galaxy and die alone.

From what we can tell in the sequel films, there was no Empire when Kylo Ren destroyed the New Jedi Order Luke had built and the First Order was in its infancy. There was no overwhelming army that had taken control of the galaxy, no unwinnable situation, nothing to push Luke away apart from his own guilt over a stupid mistake that Rian "The Expectation Subverter" Jonsen forced on him. Luke had every opportunity to find Kylo, make the situation right, and nip the First Order in the bud before it became a major problem for the galaxy. Instead, he exiles himself for over a decade, lets the galaxy go to shit, and has to be dragged out of his retirement kicking and screaming.

That image is fundamental misunderstanding of what Obi-Wan and Yoda did, and how different it was than what Sequel Trilogy Luke did.
I agree completely. I just couldn't believe Luke as a dead-beat dad.

Ewoks never bothered me. They're just one of the many points in the series that technology isn't always a solution (or even a benefit).

As for Stormtroopers, I always thought that most of them would be crappy. Their armor is designed to look terrifying but it's an army of quantity. The specialized Stormtroopers are probably elite but the rank-and-file are just whatever bodies they can get placed inside their most mass produced armor.
FuzzyBoots
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stormtroopers! Ackbar! Wedge! Luke Skywalker!)

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Ares wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:31 am . . . except that meme is complete horseshit.

....

That image is fundamental misunderstanding of what Obi-Wan and Yoda did, and how different it was than what Sequel Trilogy Luke did.
Eh, I'm fine with disagreeing. It's not a hill to die on for me. It could be that Mark Hamill just did an excellent job of making us believe the situation, that he doubted himself so much after having been on the brink of killing an innocent over a bad feeling.
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