Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Adm. Thrawn! Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe!)

Post by Ares »

Woodclaw wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:55 pm
Ares wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:35 pm To the surprise of absolutely no one, I LOVE Chirrut Imwe. The Expanded Universe material had long had martial arts styles that could make someone lethal to the point of not needing blasters, with some styles like Teras Kasi potentially making one a match for a Jedi. So seeing someone kung fu fight a squad of Stormtroopers into submission was a truly fun moment. The fact that he's so good at dodging that he can make Stormtroopers hit each other precisely (he gets one Trooper to blast the guy guarding Jyn and Cassian, the bolt firing BETWEEN them to hit the guy behind them) and can knock guys in full armor out with kicks says something about his skill.

I recall some members of the movie production claiming Chirrut wasn't actually Force Sensitive, which seemed weird to me. He clearly had some abilities with the Force, so perhaps they meant that he wasn't born Force Sensitive but developed Force abilities with training? He does clearly impossible things, such as being able to detect that Jyn is wearing a kyber crystal pendant, snipe a TIE Fighter out of the air, be aware of things like Cassian's desire to kill, and of course his leap of faith at the end.

The expanded material also went into that nifty bo-staff-blaster thing he uses to snipe down the TIE Fighter. Apparently it's a human version of a Bowcaster, having hitting power comparable to Chewbacca's weapon, but in order to compensate for the recoil of such a blast they had to make the weapon much longer and fire single shots. The result is that Chirrut is both a close combat specialist and a high powered single shot sniper.

I also love the banter Chirrut has, especially between him and Baze.
My personal reasoning is that Chirrut is Force-sensitive, but he was never a Jedi. Somewhere I read a pretty good theory that the monks of Jeddha were something of a spin-off of the old Jedi Order, tasked with guarding one major source of kyber crystals, and in time they developed their own Force tradition.
The whole notion of "Force Sensitivity" got muddled the more the EU and then the Disney Canon went on. My own two cents would be that Force Sensitivity is something that you can be born with or that you can attain through training. It's essentially like having a genetic predisposition towards some talent or skill, but with the Force there's also a spiritual aspect to it as well. Most Jedi and all Sith are born Force Sensitive, and are raised to hone their natural talents. I'd also say Jedi and Sith believe that the only people who who should use the Force are those born to it, for different reasons.

Someone Chirrut would be someone who wasn't born Force Sensitive, but he developed it through years of hard word and training, mostly on his own thanks to the Empire's purge of potentially dangerous Force Groups.
Ares wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:35 pm *Chirrut walks out of the downed spacecraft*

Baze: "Where are you going!?"

Chirrut: "To find Jyn!"

Baze: *sarcastically* "Good luck!"

Chirrut: "I don't need luck! I've got you!"

*Baze pauses for a moment, then grumpily follows after Chirrut*


I like that last exchange especially. You'd think with Chirrut's previous statements he would have said "I don't need luck, I have the Force." Instead he shows that he has at least as much faith in his friend as he does in an all powerful mystical energy field that binds the universe together. That's some deep friendship there.
That last exchange, which I love to no end BTW, also made a ton of people question if Chirrut and Baze were actually married. Personally I don't think they were, but if that was the case major kudos to the production team for adding a homosexual couple without slapping the audience in face.
I also don't think they were a married couple either, as I'm pretty sure Baze would have given Chirrut a final kiss or referred to him as something stronger than "my friend". I wouldn't have had a problem with it if that was clear, but to me it came off as a strong, brotherly platonic friendship.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

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They kinda gave off the heterosexual life-long partners to me.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by drkrash »

That's actually a common trope in adventure fiction for the past 3000 years that is constantly subverted to my annoyance these days.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

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drkrash wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:08 pm That's actually a common trope in adventure fiction for the past 3000 years that is constantly subverted to my annoyance these days.
I'd say that it actually doesn't get subverted so much as people will frequently see something that isn't there in order to check the right progressive boxes. You saw a lot of that with Bucky and Captain America where this small but loud group was demanding that Steve and Bucky be gay. It's like the idea of a platonic friendship doesn't exist for some people anymore.

At to be honest, I'm equally tired of two people being paired up just because they spent enough screen time together and are of the appropriate orientation for each other. It's why I was glad Jyn and Cassian didn't overtly get pushed into that territory, ditto with the main heroes from the original Pacific Rim. If two people get paired up, there needs to be a reason for it. Actual chemistry, the fact that they make each other better, etc. It's why the pairing of Rose and Finn in The Last Jedi came out of nowhere and was forgotten, but also why for some people, the Kylo Ren/Rey ship just doesn't make sense. And then you've got the insane Reylo shippers that actually are harassing Adam Driver because they want him to divorce his wife and marry Daisy Riddley.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by kirinke »

Some people get invested in the characters and forget they aren't real.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by drkrash »

Ares wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:14 pm
drkrash wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:08 pm That's actually a common trope in adventure fiction for the past 3000 years that is constantly subverted to my annoyance these days.
I'd say that it actually doesn't get subverted so much as people will frequently see something that isn't there in order to check the right progressive boxes. You saw a lot of that with Bucky and Captain America where this small but loud group was demanding that Steve and Bucky be gay. It's like the idea of a platonic friendship doesn't exist for some people anymore.

At to be honest, I'm equally tired of two people being paired up just because they spent enough screen time together and are of the appropriate orientation for each other. It's why I was glad Jyn and Cassian didn't overtly get pushed into that territory, ditto with the main heroes from the original Pacific Rim. If two people get paired up, there needs to be a reason for it. Actual chemistry, the fact that they make each other better, etc. It's why the pairing of Rose and Finn in The Last Jedi came out of nowhere and was forgotten, but also why for some people, the Kylo Ren/Rey ship just doesn't make sense. And then you've got the insane Reylo shippers that actually are harassing Adam Driver because they want him to divorce his wife and marry Daisy Riddley.
I get that it's not *actually* subverted nearly so often. But in our nerd-worlds on the internet, I'm tired of very loud fandoms that have to "ship" every possible pairing (which more often than not seems to focus on every homosexual pairing in particular).

It's frustrating because there's a lot of power (both narratively and in fact) in brothers or sisters who would die for each other. Instead, we get, "yeah, but wouldn't it be better if they wanted to bone each other too so we can write fanfic about it?"
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Orson Krennic

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Image

ORSON KRENNIC
Role:
Imperial Agent, Death Star Builder
Group Affiliations: The Galactic Empire
PL 6 (82)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 5 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+4)
Deception 6 (+9)
Expertise (Space Military) 5 (+9)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 2 (+5)
Investigation 5 (+8)
Technology 5 (+8)
Vehicles 2 (+7)

Advantages:
Benefit 2 (Rank), Equipment 3 (Imperial Gear), Ranged Attack 2

Offense:
Unarmed +5 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Laser Guns +7 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +5 (DC 15), Toughness +2, Fortitude +4, Will +5

Complications:
Motivation (Ambition)- Krennic wishes to be noticed by Emperor Palpatine, and to rise through the ranks.
Responsibility (The Empire)- Krennic is a loyal agent.

Total: Abilities: 52 / Skills: 30--15 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 8 (82)

-Krennic is... the pretty low-rent "Moff Tarkin" they got to be the main villain of Rogue One. He's your typical Imperial Operative- Aryan, British, High-Cheekboned and Boring. He's mostly a means to an end, and there to give us a one-off foe who doesn't run away with the story, but who has a bit of a personal stake in things (he manipulates Jyn's father Galen Erso to create the Death Star's superlaser). His big thing is ambition- Darth Vader himself warns him not to "choke" on it, and he's striving to be noticed by senpai- er... Emperor Palpatine. Krennic leads the squads to shut down the Rebels who plan on stealing the Death Star plans, but ultimately fails in his mission- he's first shot, and then finally vaporized when Tarkin unleashes Krennic's own concept- the superlaser- to stop the Rebels. The culmination of his life's work ultimately destroyed him.

-Krennic is Generic McEmpireguy, sporting lower stats but good smarts.
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Okay here's my sequel reviews

Post by Jabroniville »

THE SEQUEL TRILOGY:
-.... *sigh*. Well HERE GOES...

So J.J. Abrams, a popular movie & TV director, gets hired on to produce a new trilogy for his Disney masters- a SEQUEL Trilogy, no less! With most of the original actors still living, it seems like a great idea! We can find out what's finally become of all these people! We haven't really seen Luke, Han, or Leia since the mid-1980s! Abrams understands the value of practical effects and storytelling- things George Lucas lost ages ago when he no longer had people around to tell him "no". So like, this'll all be great, right?

EEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... well, ya see...

The Force Awakens:
For the first movie, Abrams does some stuff right (much is made of Han, Chewie & Leia returning), establishes some new characters, and gives us some pretty stuff to look at. But then the whole movie is just a retread of the first Star Wars- complete with a Planet-Destroying Space Spheroid, a battle to blow it up, a Darth Vader lookalike, a newly-discovered Force User, etc. People didn't seem to mind it, but nobody really LOVED IT, and Kylo Ren got a lot of laughs for his reveal as "Darth Andy Samberg". Our big heroes, Rey & Finn, didn't get to show very much, and Rey ROTFLstomped Kylo in his big first battle while Finn was mostly the kinda-funny guy, running around like a chicken with his head cut off in his desire to go AWOL from the Empire. Also, it's kinda weird that after the big Rebellion of the Original Movies, that this "First Order" just piled in so quickly and is now getting all these big wins, just copying the same points, right down to the same Stormtrooper Gear.

Big Plot Point: Kylo Ren is the son of Han & Leia, and fell to the Dark Side, ultimately killing Han near the movie's climax.

The Last Jedi:
-In the second movie, possibly the most odd producer choice in history is made, as Abrams seems to take a HUGE BACKSEAT to everything and let a new director, Rian Johnson, do whatever he wants. Johnson, highly-respected from his artistic TV work (he directed the famous Ozymandias episode of Breaking Bad- one of the show's absolute best), seems like he just ran off and did whatever he wanted to do, as there's some Star Wars trappings, but it's mostly it's own thing. Out of nowherer comes Vice-Admiral Holdo, a purple-haired GILF who smugly takes over, doesn't listen to hotshot Poe Dameron, and is made to look deliberately (to me) like an Empire Spy, only it turns out NO SHE'S HEROIC. She makes this brave sacrifice, but unfortunately Johnson's own plot dictates her a wasteful failure, and Luke has to save everyone, dying in the process of showing a brand-new Force Power, while Leia nearly dies showing Force Powers of her own.

Oh, and Luke quit being a Jedi because he got paranoid over Kylo Ren's growing power and kinda thought about killing him, but as he was changing his mind, Kylo saw him and freaked out. So Luke figured the Jedi sucked and fled from his responsibility to live as a hermit on an island.

To say fans FLIPPED OUT over this movie is to make a dramatic understatement. Almost overnight, Star Wars fans, the most legendarily-unpleasable nerds in the world (whether this is fair or not is a matter of debate- WRESTLING FANS ARE MUCH WORSE TRUST ME- but they definitely are the most well-known for it) were outraged. It also ran up completely against multiple things going on in every fandom you can think of: the "Social Justice Warriors Versus Everyone Else" thing. Something that'd started with GamerGate several years ago, but was now being a bigger and bigger issue: politically-correct and mindful people trying to push their views on everyone else, or the perception thereof. As Hollywood is both pretty whitewashed but also very Liberal Guilt about everything, this snowballed into creating a firestorm for which GamerGate was just the first shot in the new culture war. The term "SJW" took hold (though I prefer another term someone told me- "Social Justice Zealot").

The Accusations: The movie was seen as disregarding various male characters, especially Poe, who represents the "Toxic Masculinity" of a sort, where he's all "RAH RAH! TAKE ACTION!" and gets people killed while "Mansplaining", while frequently being talked down to by these wise, elder, all-knowing females (several shots make sure that we only see females in command; many of whom are homely and not your typical Barbie Doll Actresses you'd otherwise see). The attractive Daisy Ridley is de-sexualized as Rey, who is a simple Mary Sue with no real character traits and has yet to truly suffer in-story- she is simply given a great role, does awesome things, and easily gains power. The attractive Kelly Marie Tran is WAY de-sexualized as Rose Tico, who is put in the most unflattering gear possible and wears little observable makeup, while acting smarter than everyone else. Women are shown as repeatedly heroic, smart, and awesome, in contrast to most of the men, and we are told that they're correct (even when the events don't).

Other, less-political things: Luke is made out to be a quitter, he DIES without ever having interacted with most of the original cast, Abrams's big villain Lord Snoke is killed in a hilariously offhand manner and almost never brought up again, Captain Phasma joins him in "mediocre death for a hyped character" and never matters to anything, Rose's out of nowhere declaration of love for Finn confuses him as much as the audience, Adam Driver has a bloated roid-physique, there's an infamous "Casino" subplot that goes nowhere except to show that both sides could be kinda bad and that war sucked, and Admiral Ackbar dies more or less off-screen while Johnson is almost rewriting what the Force does and how you can use it.

Of all of these, I find the biggest waste was Luke PRACTICALLY NEVER TALKING TO ANYONE FROM THE ORIGINALS. He speaks to Yoda for one scene, and pats C-3PO on the shoulder, but otherwise it's just him & Rey. This is, to me, the most unacceptable crime of these movies by far. You had all three major actors alive for two whole movies and they can't even friggin' talk to each other for one scene?!?

But in any case, the lines were drawn.
Option #1: This movie was an SJW shitpile designed to humiliate our boyhood favorites, it shit on men, it shit on Abrams, and it was the worst thing ever. Kathleen Kennedy, the faceless executive put in charge of the Star Wars portion of Disney's Empire (to go along with the Animation Wing once ruled by John Lassetter and now the co-directors of Frozen, the Marvel wing under Kevin Feig, and the Parks wing under Bob Chapek), was now Public Enemy #1, and public calls for her firing were made. She became almost as big an enemy as Johnson was.

Option #2: Oh, but on the OTHER hand, if you hated this movie, then you were a miserable, lonely, MRA proto-fascist who loved Trump, hated women because you couldn't attract them and were entitled to their vaginas, and couldn't understand that the world was changing and you were too much of a baby to deal with it, so you thrashed around and cried.

In short, people are morons, film at 11.

Truth be told, I liked it enough. Saw it once, found it fine, never desired to really see it again (not that I'd be diametrically opposed to it; just didn't feel like spending the money to search it out). But I never really LOVED Star Wars the way it's True Fans did; the original trilogy is a series of fantastic movies, but I never fell in love with the WORLD- putting "Star Wars" in front of something is no guarantee I'd watch it. I thought some stuff was good (Finn gets my favorite moment in all of these against Phasma, and Hammill did some great stuff on that island), some stuff was dumb, and it was kinda boring (the major accusation of Non-Fans who saw it- it was mostly two ships flying slowly in space).

But yeah, it got tied up into everything ELSE stupid going on with the world today, where the voices got more intractible and loud until NOBODY would listen to reason or common sense anymore. Lines were drawn and anyone who was close to crossing it was now your dire enemy. Public backlash and "bullying" of the actors (some just from regular trolls, some targetted harassment by former fans), the media painting all those who hated it as "evil trolls", and more. People accused this of Disney getting their media drones to do it, but really, you gotta have a REASON for the press to accentuate the negative? Now people who didn't give a shit about Star Wars were now huge fans of Rey (with many other directors saying they wanted "a character like Rey" in their picture), Rose was ESPECIALLY beloved, and everyone who hated the new movies was a pig. For people who disliked them, Rey was now the "Canary in the Coal Mine" showing that SJWs were on the attack and would scarf up every piece of media that men had once loved and DESTROY IT, converting everyone into bland, perfect females who were never criticized, and given constant adulation and confirmation by others. Marvel pushing Captain Marvel not too long after, and making her a prominent and powerful character was seen as more of this from the Mouse Overlords.

The Rise of Skywalker:
-So with Johnson done his movie, Abrams was left with finishing things up. And... well, this movie 100% felt like it was written on the fly, going "Oh shit- NOW what do I do?" Things Johnson did were rapidly ignored and forgotten- "Rose Tico? NAHHHHH- not important! Give her 76 seconds of screentime, we got stuff to do! Lord Snoke? Yeah, here's his master pla-- shit, he's dead? Really? Okay, THE EMPEROR IS BACK AND SNOKE WAS HIS HOMUNCULUS MINION! Wait, he said Rey was just some nobody, too? Okay, RETCON- now she's Palpatine's GRANDDAUGHTER! Umm... the big plan is to create a fleet of Star Destroyers with Death Star Guns on them. Um, there's a secret planet with tons of tech, and the Emperor is a techno-zombie. Crap, Carrie died? Well we'll retrofit some scenes with her, give her a heroic end, and then do some other stuff? Hm, we need a big heroic scene for Kylo Ren to redeem himself and die like his grandfather! I know- FORCE HEALING? What, you mean we didn't invent that before? Um, well let's have Rey do it at the beginning so it's not an asspull, have her do it later to save Kylo, and THEN it won't be! If anyone bitches, we'll just say it was in an RPG or some shit!" It 100% read like an apology for the previous movie, and a LOT of people noticed.

Luke comes back, says "I was wrong" and convinces Rey to fight. Lando Calrissian makes her return ONLY NOW and that somehow gets all the defeated Rebels to come back for a final rush. Leia dies distracting Kylo so he takes a killshot, but Rey heals him with a power that was NEVER EVER SEEN UNTIL THIS MOVIE. Also yeah, they're both grandkids of the top two Sith Lords, which is why they can talk to each other and now share gear. The Emperor tempts Rey by promising to spare everyone if she'll kill him and thus allow his essence to take her over, but she's all like "F*CK THAT!" and uses the Lightsaber Versus Lightning thing that I bet Luke wishes he knew was a thing back when, Kylo helps her out and heals her until he himself dies, and the day is saved by the new generation.

The movie has overall not done nearly as well- the franchise as a whole seems to be doing less well with each passing film (with the spin-offs doing so poorly that Solo was the last one released!)- people smugly declare "Get Woke, Go Broke" while others suspect Franchise Fatigue, but honestly... I think that while the backlash is more vocal than universal, ironically echoing the voices of SJWs, themselves a highly-vocal minority given way more platform than deserved given their size. Both groups are rather small. I mean, as GROUPS they're small- individually they're f*cking ENORMOUS.

SO OVERALL:
-Yeah, I can see why people hated it. I found the movies inoffensive and fine, but to people who LOVED the characters, I can get the disappointment. Especially Luke, who deserved better than a weird flashback "I thought he would turn out evil so I almost killed by nephew" bit. Failing to show Han, Luke, Leia, Chewie & Lando together is as stupid a waste as if somebody had the original and Next Generation Star Trek casts in one movie and failed to show the crews interacting with each other (... NAHHHHHHHH!!- ain't nobody would ever do something THAT f*ckin' dumb!).

The fact that the First Order pops up and immediately takes over however much of the galaxy again makes the Republic look stupid- Luke, Leia, Han, etc. can't keep any of that under control for forty years? And it's... a very same-y threat. Like, at least the Prequels gave us SOME new bad guys- it wasn't all dudes with red lightsabers and white-armored goons.

The swordfights were sometimes cool, but mostly forgettable to me. Rey was a very bland new action hero, and the critics are largely right about herr- she's a Mary Sue given great power and meaning in the story, but doesn't really EARN any of it- it's just given to her. Finn was badly mishandled and only kind of/sort of mattered. The second movie was DEFINITELY given over to Feminist/Neo-Liberal/PC elements and that affected things in very obvious ways. Johnson so clearly wrote weird shit that Abrams so clearly didn't know what to do with that it comes off as disjointed and unplanned- the Emperor, Rey's lineage, the Force Healing and more were GIGANTIC ASSPULLS that is kind of unacceptable given modern editing, storytelling, and the amount of hands involved in this story. The dialogue was mostly unmemorable, the plots unimaginitive and often just plain boring, and the character designs were willy-nilly and not that great- things Star Wars used to do SPECTACULARLY well. This was unacceptable.

But that's mostly been ignored in the modern wars of words.

As a whole, I'm just entirely sick of hearing about it. Way too much mud-slinging on all sides. The fact that Star Wars has had four good movies out of ten kind of affirms to me that I don't even LIKE Star Wars- just the first three movies. The rest of it, from the "Actually, the weird thing in the originals is explained such in this overly-detailed book" and "Actually, what you thought was everyone spinning around with the same style because the movies had one choreographer was ACTUALLY just seventeen different lightsaber styles" Expanded Universe to the new stuff to the video games and whatever... I like the parts I like, and I can leave the rest. The world itself isn't really that interesting to me- what I love is the visual stuff- the weird alien races and action scenes. And the sound effects and the whole "Lightsaber-Wielding Telepathic Warriors" concepts.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

I don't hate the Sequel Trilogy with the passion of a thousand suns or anything, but they're definitely...mishandled. I'll say that much.
The big mistake was just flying in without a real plan. Looking forward to the builds, at least. I don't see Kylo's PL being too high, though given how I think he's only defeated like one named character (Finn) in a fight (as his other victories were from Sneak Attacks). At least he had that "Stops a Laser Bolt in Midair" trick, which felt like it was trying to one-up Vader's "Stops a Blaster Bolt With His Hand" thing.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by Ares »

I do hate the sequel films, but I also wish people would stop talking about them any just move on. I've vented most of my rage and disappointment over the decisions made, the blatant recycling of moments from the original trilogy, Rian "The Expectation Subverter" Johnson, all of it. I would happily focus on the old stuff I liked, and the new stuff Disney put out that I either really liked (Mandalorian, Rogue One) or were meh but largely inoffensive (Solo). I think most fans of Star Wars would happily do the same . . . except the media and Sequel Fans keep picking at the wounds and won't let them heal. Whether you like or dislike the Sequel Trilogy became a political statement, it informed whether or not you were some kind of toxic manbaby, racist, misogynist, etc. I largely blame them for keeping the debate going, because it's a bunch of insufferable idiots with some actual mainstream pull basically calling the majority of fans all kinds of terrible things because they didn't like the product.

See Ghostbusters 2016, Terminator Dark Fate, Charlies Angels, etc.

Me, I'm going to sell my copy of Force Awakens and relegate the Sequel Trilogy in my head to the same box I mentally place every Highlander movie after the first film, every Crow movie after the first film, every live action Transformers movie save for Bumblebee, every Ninja Turtles movie after the first two made back in the late 80s/early 90s, etc. Just put it aside, pretend it's off in some parallel universe and I can enjoy the parts of the franchise I love.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by FuzzyBoots »

FWIW, as I understand it, Rose's arc in the third film was so abbreviated in part due to Carrie Fisher's death. The original plan had Rose and Leia doing a lot of scenes together, and Abrams filmed a ton of them, but in the end, the results didn't turn out as lifelike as they wanted (I don't know if it was quite as bad as the Rogue One depictions of Tarkin and Leia), and so ultimately, they had to scrap that footage.

Kind of sad, but it is a reality of current special effects that the final work isn't done on a film until mere weeks before release, and sometimes that means cutting footage that just isn't going to make the deadline.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by M4C8 »

I been watching some of the ScreenRant 'Pitch Meetings' series on YouTube, the Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker episodes are great (as are the Cats, female Ghostbusters and final season of Game of Thrones)
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by Ares »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:58 pm FWIW, as I understand it, Rose's arc in the third film was so abbreviated in part due to Carrie Fisher's death. The original plan had Rose and Leia doing a lot of scenes together, and Abrams filmed a ton of them, but in the end, the results didn't turn out as lifelike as they wanted (I don't know if it was quite as bad as the Rogue One depictions of Tarkin and Leia), and so ultimately, they had to scrap that footage.

Kind of sad, but it is a reality of current special effects that the final work isn't done on a film until mere weeks before release, and sometimes that means cutting footage that just isn't going to make the deadline.
My understanding is that a reason this trilogy will forever feel like a disjointed mess boils down to Kathleen Kenedy and Rian Johnsen. So wit, the third guy they got to write and direct the final Star Wars film was originally going to call it "Duel of Fates", and was going to do his best to follow The Last Jedi's script. The script for Duel of Fates was actually completed during the shooting of The Last Jedi, and was suppose to have Leia as the titular "Last Jedi" who would go on to train Rey and have a larger role in the final film.

However, when Carrie Fisher died during the making of The Last Jedi, the guy's entire script was thrown off because the script required a living Jedi mentor to be an integral part of the film. So the solution the guy proposed was that they do some minor re-shoots and have Leia be the one to die and keep Luke alive to fulfill the mentor role. This not only would have solved the problem the script writer had, but it would have helped the fans get over the horrible treatment of Luke because he would have at least had a shot at a redemption arc and being a hero again. But Kennedy and Johnsen shot that down because they wanted to keep the idea of Luke and the Jedi being failures, Luke dying, etc.

In essence, Johnsen not only didn't care about the mess he made of the work that had come before him, he didn't care about the mess he was leaving for others to clean up. As a result, the script writer/director walked off the project and they had to bring J. J. Abrams back in to fix things.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jyn Erso! Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Well, I'm not going to lie, I don't have a good opinion of the sequel trilogy, but the reason is that it failed in its most basic storytelling: it didn't set up a credible legacy. I'm a sucker for legacy stories and the idea of having the old cast passing the torch to a new generation was what brought me to the theater to see Force Awakens and Last Jedi. The big problem is that the potential was all there, but nothing came of it.
Why?
Well, in my opinion, because the old characters were portrayed as if they had nothing to offer (this might be a bit different in Rise of Skywalker), but the long and short of it is that at every step of the way the new generation seems to always have the upper hand. This isn't new to Star Wars, but it's so "in your face" that it hurts. In the original trilogy, Luke proved Yoda wrong breaking the Emperor's control, but it was a gamble that almost cost him his life and that nobody else in the entire Galaxy even believed it was possible. So the new kid proved the old master wrong... but only after listening to what the old master had to say.
In this new trilogy, it seems that the old guys must be proven wrong every step of the way. Han (aside from losing almost 3 movies of character development) wasn't able to reconnect with his son. Leia was literally in the same spot she was years ago, leading the rebellion, if possible with 1/100th of the resources. Luke... well, Luke was proven wrong every step of the way, after apparently becoming even more rigid and dogmatic than Yoda ever was. Maybe it's a Jedi thing, I don't know. What I do know is that, apparently, nothing the old generation did amount to jackshit, so they have no torch to pass, no lesson to give and no legacy to uphold.
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Rey

Post by Jabroniville »

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REY
Role:
Action Girl, Mary Sue, Automatically-Powerful Girl
Group Affiliations: The Resistance
PL 11 (199)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+12)
Athletics 9 (+11)
Close Combat (Lightsaber) 3 (+14)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Soldier) 7 (+8)
Insight 4 (+7)
Investigation 2 (+5)
Perception 5 (+8)
Stealth 1 (+6)
Technology 2 (+3)
Vehicles 6 (+11)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Equipment 3 (Blaster +5, Assorted Gear), Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Lightsaber), Improved Defense 2, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative 2, Improved Smash, Interpose, Languages (A Few), Luck 4, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 6, Seize Initiative, Takedown 2, Uncanny Dodge

Powers:
"Mastery of The Force"
"Force Senses"
Senses 13 (Detect The Force- Ranged 5, Detect Life- Ranged 5, Communication Link- Kylo Ren) [13]
Senses 4 (Precognition) (Flaws: Uncontrolled) [2]
Enhanced Skill 2: Vehicles 2 (+13) [1]
Enhanced Advantages 5: Defensive Roll 2, Improved Aim, Precise Attack 2 (Ranged/Cover, Close/Concealment) [5]

"Force-Assisted Movement"
Leaping 1 (15 feet) [1]
Speed 2 (8 mph) [2]

"Jedi Laser Deflection" Deflect 12 (Extras: Multiattack, Reflect, Redirection) (Flaws: Limited to Lasers, Lightsaber-Based, Multiattack Requires Multiple Lasers -1/2) (18) -- [23]
  • AE: "Use The Force" Move Object 8 (Feats: Subtle) (Diminished Range -1) (16)
  • AE: "Force Push" Damage 2 (Feats: Subtle) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cone +1/2) Linked to Affliction 7 (Strength; Hindered & Vulnerable/Prone & Stunned) (Feats: Subtle) (Extras: Extra Condition, Area- 30ft. Cone +1/2) (Flaws: Limited Degree) (15.5)
  • AE: Communication (Mental) 2 (8)
  • AE: "Unusual Bond" Teleport 9 (Extras: Accurate, Extended) (Flaws: Limited to Objects, Limited to Towards Kylo Ren) (18)
  • AE: "Force Healing" Healing 8 (Flaws: Empathic) (8)
"Lightsaber" (Flaws: Easily Removable) (Feats: Restricted to Those Trained) [9]
Strength-Damage +6 (Extras: Penetrating 7) (13 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Lightsaber +14 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Laser Blaster +11 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Force Push +2-6 Area (+2 Damage & +7 Affliction, DC 12 & 17)
Mind Trick +6 Area (+6 Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +13

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +14 (DC 24), Toughness +4 (+6 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +10

Complications:
Motivation (Defeating the First Order)- Rey's mission is to defeat the First Order after being dragged into multiple fights thanks to Kylo Ren.
Responsibility (Lack of Identity)- Rey feels alone in the world after being left alone on Jakku. She is shattered to be told that her parents had sold her into servitude when she was a child, and only later learns the real truth.
Relationship (Kylo Ren)- Rey and Kylo were opposed to each other at first, but have a strange "bond" that sees them communicating with one another, trying to turn the other to their own side.
Responsibility (The Dark Side)- The Dark Side is dangerously-close for all Jedi. Using the "Channel the Dark Side Powers", using Dark Side-like powers (like strangling someone with The Force, or crushing them internally), killing defeated foes or otherwise killing needlessly, and even using All-Out or Power Attack too often can lead the Jedi down a dark path. The Dark Side is "quicker, EASIER- more seductive," and the temporary boost of power can easily tempt one. Excessive use of the Dark Side will twist one's spirit, and mangle their body.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 46--23 / Advantages: 33 / Powers: 55 / Defenses: 20 (199)

Rey- The New Hero:
-Rey is probably the most controversial character of the New Trilogy, and for good reason. She's this unique combination of having many traits that annoy people, and having no traits AT ALL. Like Luke, she was given the "You have a great destiny" thing and tons of innate power, but UNLIKE Luke, she came by so much of it so quickly, with few hurdles along the way, making it come off as very easy. As she was also at the forefront of the movies (which had a clear attempt at adding diversity, ie. women and minorities, to the universe of Star Wars), and became highly influential to others (the makers of Toy Story 4 declared they wanted "another Rey" while making Bo Peep a more important, action-capable character), this drew a lot of conversation. She was so famous she'd now trumped Katniss, the previous "Action Heroine". In short, Rey became a very public case of a "Mary Sue".

-The issue is, Rey is a lot of power, and not a lot of CHARACTER. In the first movie, she's got bits and pieces here and there (she gets rapidly annoyed when Finn keeps grabbing her arm and running around- an old "Action Movie" cliche), but for the most part, she's a bland bit of nothing. She's not... eaisly-angered. Or a great leader. Or funny. Or charming. There's a bit where Luke notes that she grabs at possibly-dangerous stuff without any hesitation (which I took to mean she could have easily fallen to the Dark Side), but it's never brought up again, and she's never once close to falling (as Luke was). She's just... there. And everyone around seems to love and admire her- she gets the much-hated "Reassurance from every supporting character" thing that so annoys modern viewers. That happens a lot with the new breed of female characters- the creators want us to LIKE THEM, and so they put words of shilling in the mouths of established characters- "Your show is great; I think ALL kids should watch it!"-type stuff, that's basically "Han Solo says she's awesome, so you fans should immediately accept her!".

-Rey is immediately powerful, much moreso than any other character had been. Luke struggled with suck for two movies before he was any good, and even had to be saved by his father in the climax of the third one. Anakin had great power, but as a kid it was all wrapped up in "he's an innately good pilot" and even then he had to struggle to beat Sebulba in the Podrace, and later Anakin still jobbed out. But Rey pretty much never lost a single fight (easily mowing down Snoke's mooks, beating Kylo Ren in her first Light/Dark Duel, etc.), and showed titanic power with almost no training. Nobody formally went "Okay, this is how you do all this stuff"- she just did it. She has a "Great Destiny", similar to no small number of other characters in fiction, but unlike most of them, she never had to walk through the same hell to get her happy ending- Harry Potter was always "special", but was largely never close to the best or most powerful Wizard, for example, and was constantly losing, being embarrassed, or suffering tragedy.

-All of this adds up to making Rey kind of a Mary Sue- not so much of a character, but as someone that things just HAPPEN to, as the world revolves around them. The Emperor wants her to replace him, Kylo wants her to be with him, the Old Cast want her to be their new great hope, and she's the target of everyone else... but she herself doesn't really get UP to anything. Daisy Ridley plays her with no charisma at all, and it remains to be seen if she's actually any good. She reminds me of the accusation I saw leveled at Liir in Son of a Witch, the sequel to the Wicked novel- "Someone things happen to", but not really an interesting character in and of themselves. And Star Wars being such a huge thing- among the biggest money-making franchises in history- Rey became a giant symbol of Mary Sue-dom. The trappings of "everyone loves them for no reason" is there, the great destiny and power for no reason is there, etc. And that's part of what angers so many "True Fans" about her- that she's treated as if she's better than everyone else, and both the canon and a lot of viewers saw it that way.

Rey's Powers:
-Rey is one of the most remarkably win-heavy characters in Star Wars history, never suffering a prominent defeat in battle, even against trained fighters like Kylo Ren, supposedly bad-ass mooks like Snoke's guards, and others. As such, she's pretty much like Luke, but never had to bother with building XP or level-grinding- she just started out good.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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