Eternals MCU

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Eternals MCU

Post by catsi563 »

Saw it today and BOOM off we go into some amazing territory. Have to give Chloe Zhao Big credit she took a relatively obscure property and made Jack Kirbys vision a reality. and when i mean went big i mean BIIIIIGGGG were talking serious cosmic scale here.

well worth watching and very enjoyable on the big screen. Especially those two end scenes.
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Re: Eternals MCU

Post by Davies »

I have mixed feelings.
Spoiler
On the one hand, it adds some real cosmic territory to the MCU, and I also like the way that it introduced the Black Knight, portraying him as genuinely heroic and working to protect people, in contrast to Ikaris' violent 'heroism', foreshadowing how things turn later.

On the other hand ... I don't really care for the way that it eliminates the cultural aspects of the Eternals and the Deviants, especially turning the latter into mindless space monsters. Yes, the Deviants as shown by Kirby are monstrous, but their monstrosity reflects part of where we as humans are.

And the fact that the one of them who becomes sapient can only do so by stealing from the Eternals is not a good look. Also, having absorbed Gilgamesh's mind, shouldn't Kro have realized that if he kills the Eternals, nothing will be able to stop Tiamat from waking up and killing him?
So I'd give this one a 7.
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Re: Eternals MCU

Post by Ares »

I'm not a fan of this movie.
Spoiler
To put it more bluntly, I hated this movie, both as a film on its own merits and as an adaptation of an existing franchise.

As a movie, it was not good. Chloe Zhao was not the right director for this film, because she did what should have been impossible: she made a movie about Jack Kirby's immortal cosmic space heroes and made it boring.

As a movie, this film is simultaneously a bloated, overlong mess of a film that meanders and drags for long stretches, but it's also not long enough to give every character the time they need to get fleshed out. For the story they were try to tell, this would have worked better as a Disney Plus series where you have 9 hours or more to really get invested in the characters and really get to know them. We get told things about each character, but we don't really learn anything about them. We mostly get exposition instead of characterization. They introduce 10 Eternals at once, and none of them get more than even the most basic of characterization. Even Sersi, arguably the films hero, basically is just generically nice and perpetually late. That's all the characterization she really gets.

Yet despite the characters not getting time to really get characterized, this film is bloated with long, meandering moments during the various "get the band back together" moments and the flashbacks that exist to show why the band broke up. It's like someone watched Highlander, wanted to make a superhero film but decided to make it less coherent, impactful, interesting, exciting and to have even more wooden acting than Christopher Lambert.

Hell, Kit Harington probably gave the best performances in the movie and he's barely in the thing.

The fights aren't particularly well done, and can be almost impossible to follow during the night or jungle scenes.

The ending has a lot of "deus ex machina" and "subversion for subversions sake" elements to it.

So yeah, as a movie it's boring and tedious.

As an adaptation, it's actually worse.

I knew I wasn't going to care much for this version of the Eternals since it was primarily based off of the Neil Gaiman reboot that . . . well, sucked all the energy and fun out of Jack Kirby's original concept. Gaiman took Kirby's concept and made it boring, and then Zhao took Gaiman's work and made it more boring still.

The classic take on the Eternals, Deviants and Celestials was honestly a lot more interesting. The Celestials weren't creating stars and they certainly didn't use planets as breeding grounds, they were cosmic scientists interested in seeing what kind of potential species had. The Eternals and Deviants were both species with their own societies, cultures and abilities, fully fleshed out and with their own goals. The Eternals had almost limitless potential, but it required time and effort to develop that potential, with the result being that what abilities an Eternal had was reflective of who they were as a person. Ikaris is exceptionally strong and durable by even Eternal standards and has the most powerful eye beams possible because he wants to defend them, and he's their fastest and most skilled flier so that he can get where he needs to be to help people as quickly as he can. Sersi is a hedonist who loves life, so she maximized her the powers that let her get the most out of life, namely matter manipulation and telethapy. Makari was a guy who loved to run, to see new places, to experience stuff, so he became the fastest Eternal alive. Gilgamesh liked fighting monsters, so he was their mightiest warrior. Sprite actually stayed the age he was because he enjoyed being a little kid and never wanted to grow up, being more than content to be equal parts Puck and Peter Pan.

There was also plenty to show that it wasn't a simple matter of Eternals = Good and Deviants = Evil. There were good Deviants and bad Eternals. Most of the Deviants problems honestly stemmed from their poor leadership more than anything.

But then Gaiman came along and now the Eternals are just these cosmic bio-bots designed by the Dreaming Celestial for a specific purpose, and was one long bit of deconstruction after another. The Eternal's low numbers and society couldn't have prevented them from taking over the world, it had to be something programmed into them. Sprite's form couldn't possibly have been a choice, it had to be a curse that would push him to being evil. The vast array of Eternal abilities were now programmed into them at specific levels rather than being a result of the Eternal's interests. The Eternals are a lot easier to kill now, because a machine will just bring them back to life.

Gaiman's retcon should have been ignored, because everything based on it just diluted the concept and sucked all of the joy out of it.

The most recent comic even takes it one step further by saying the Eternals have always known they were fake and every once in a while they like to have a make over to change things up. A blatant retcon to make the comic characters more like the movie characters. So Ajak is now a woman, Sprite is now a girl, and Makari has gone from a red headed male to black woman who is also deaf.

This is stupid for a lot of reasons, primarily the fact that if Eternals can just completely re-do their appearance, why didn't Sprite just give themselves a new adult body?

I do appreciate that if they were intending to make Makari deaf in the movie that they actually hired a deaf actress to do it, but . . .why would the Celestials create a deaf Eternal? That makes no sense. You create an immortal, super durable cosmic enforcer who can run faster than sound, and instead of their ears just being designed to deal with sonic booms and the like, you make them deaf? Making it really easy for someone to sneak up on them and kill them? That's just stupid.

The characters also bear no resemblance to the comics characters. Everyone just lacks any kind of personality beyond the barest of traits and having the occasional Marvel snark. Kingo is the only Eternal with any real personality, and he mainly exists just to be "the silly guy" bouncing off all of the other, more serious characters. Ikaris is dull, Sersi is dull, Thena is dull, Sprite is bitter, Phastos gets the shallowest of character arcs, etc. Even when comics Ikaris was mostly "Generic 80s Leader Guy", he had more going for him than movie Ikaris because comics Ikaris also loved humanity, he had his own missions, his own duties, his own life outside of what this movie gives him. Poor Sersi goes from a fun loving party girl that constantly made Captain America uncomfortable to basically having no personality of her own.

There was also so much "subverted expectations" nonsense. Oh look, Ikaris is the bad guy, completely subverting our expectations of the traditional white male heroic archetype. Oh look, the Eternal that was evil in the comics is good guy in movie. Oh look, instead of having a Dreaming Celestial like in the comic, we just flat out kill it off.

Even incorporating the Celestial Seed bit from Earth X seems like a weird choice, so much so that I have to wonder if that was actually a reference to that series. I could just as easily believe it was someone trying to make the Celestials more like the Pantheon from World of Warcraft.

The Deviants also get done dirty, going from this unique culture where no two beings look alike to generic space monsters.

I feel bad for the Eternals concept as a whole. It was never meant to be in the Marvel Universe to begin with, but it could have worked with enough effort. And initially, that effort was made, until Gaiman and those that came after him basically sucked the life out of the property, and then Zhao came along and went beyond sucking the life from it to just sucking.
So in summary, I don't consider this a good movie, and it's in the bottom pile of MCU films I don't plan to ever watch again.
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Re: Eternals MCU

Post by M4C8 »

Ares wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:57 pm I'm not a fan of this movie.
Spoiler
To put it more bluntly, I hated this movie, both as a film on its own merits and as an adaptation of an existing franchise.

As a movie, it was not good. Chloe Zhao was not the right director for this film, because she did what should have been impossible: she made a movie about Jack Kirby's immortal cosmic space heroes and made it boring.

As a movie, this film is simultaneously a bloated, overlong mess of a film that meanders and drags for long stretches, but it's also not long enough to give every character the time they need to get fleshed out. For the story they were try to tell, this would have worked better as a Disney Plus series where you have 9 hours or more to really get invested in the characters and really get to know them. We get told things about each character, but we don't really learn anything about them. We mostly get exposition instead of characterization. They introduce 10 Eternals at once, and none of them get more than even the most basic of characterization. Even Sersi, arguably the films hero, basically is just generically nice and perpetually late. That's all the characterization she really gets.

Yet despite the characters not getting time to really get characterized, this film is bloated with long, meandering moments during the various "get the band back together" moments and the flashbacks that exist to show why the band broke up. It's like someone watched Highlander, wanted to make a superhero film but decided to make it less coherent, impactful, interesting, exciting and to have even more wooden acting than Christopher Lambert.

Hell, Kit Harington probably gave the best performances in the movie and he's barely in the thing.

The fights aren't particularly well done, and can be almost impossible to follow during the night or jungle scenes.

The ending has a lot of "deus ex machina" and "subversion for subversions sake" elements to it.

So yeah, as a movie it's boring and tedious.

As an adaptation, it's actually worse.

I knew I wasn't going to care much for this version of the Eternals since it was primarily based off of the Neil Gaiman reboot that . . . well, sucked all the energy and fun out of Jack Kirby's original concept. Gaiman took Kirby's concept and made it boring, and then Zhao took Gaiman's work and made it more boring still.

The classic take on the Eternals, Deviants and Celestials was honestly a lot more interesting. The Celestials weren't creating stars and they certainly didn't use planets as breeding grounds, they were cosmic scientists interested in seeing what kind of potential species had. The Eternals and Deviants were both species with their own societies, cultures and abilities, fully fleshed out and with their own goals. The Eternals had almost limitless potential, but it required time and effort to develop that potential, with the result being that what abilities an Eternal had was reflective of who they were as a person. Ikaris is exceptionally strong and durable by even Eternal standards and has the most powerful eye beams possible because he wants to defend them, and he's their fastest and most skilled flier so that he can get where he needs to be to help people as quickly as he can. Sersi is a hedonist who loves life, so she maximized her the powers that let her get the most out of life, namely matter manipulation and telethapy. Makari was a guy who loved to run, to see new places, to experience stuff, so he became the fastest Eternal alive. Gilgamesh liked fighting monsters, so he was their mightiest warrior. Sprite actually stayed the age he was because he enjoyed being a little kid and never wanted to grow up, being more than content to be equal parts Puck and Peter Pan.

There was also plenty to show that it wasn't a simple matter of Eternals = Good and Deviants = Evil. There were good Deviants and bad Eternals. Most of the Deviants problems honestly stemmed from their poor leadership more than anything.

But then Gaiman came along and now the Eternals are just these cosmic bio-bots designed by the Dreaming Celestial for a specific purpose, and was one long bit of deconstruction after another. The Eternal's low numbers and society couldn't have prevented them from taking over the world, it had to be something programmed into them. Sprite's form couldn't possibly have been a choice, it had to be a curse that would push him to being evil. The vast array of Eternal abilities were now programmed into them at specific levels rather than being a result of the Eternal's interests. The Eternals are a lot easier to kill now, because a machine will just bring them back to life.

Gaiman's retcon should have been ignored, because everything based on it just diluted the concept and sucked all of the joy out of it.

The most recent comic even takes it one step further by saying the Eternals have always known they were fake and every once in a while they like to have a make over to change things up. A blatant retcon to make the comic characters more like the movie characters. So Ajak is now a woman, Sprite is now a girl, and Makari has gone from a red headed male to black woman who is also deaf.

This is stupid for a lot of reasons, primarily the fact that if Eternals can just completely re-do their appearance, why didn't Sprite just give themselves a new adult body?

I do appreciate that if they were intending to make Makari deaf in the movie that they actually hired a deaf actress to do it, but . . .why would the Celestials create a deaf Eternal? That makes no sense. You create an immortal, super durable cosmic enforcer who can run faster than sound, and instead of their ears just being designed to deal with sonic booms and the like, you make them deaf? Making it really easy for someone to sneak up on them and kill them? That's just stupid.

The characters also bear no resemblance to the comics characters. Everyone just lacks any kind of personality beyond the barest of traits and having the occasional Marvel snark. Kingo is the only Eternal with any real personality, and he mainly exists just to be "the silly guy" bouncing off all of the other, more serious characters. Ikaris is dull, Sersi is dull, Thena is dull, Sprite is bitter, Phastos gets the shallowest of character arcs, etc. Even when comics Ikaris was mostly "Generic 80s Leader Guy", he had more going for him than movie Ikaris because comics Ikaris also loved humanity, he had his own missions, his own duties, his own life outside of what this movie gives him. Poor Sersi goes from a fun loving party girl that constantly made Captain America uncomfortable to basically having no personality of her own.

There was also so much "subverted expectations" nonsense. Oh look, Ikaris is the bad guy, completely subverting our expectations of the traditional white male heroic archetype. Oh look, the Eternal that was evil in the comics is good guy in movie. Oh look, instead of having a Dreaming Celestial like in the comic, we just flat out kill it off.

Even incorporating the Celestial Seed bit from Earth X seems like a weird choice, so much so that I have to wonder if that was actually a reference to that series. I could just as easily believe it was someone trying to make the Celestials more like the Pantheon from World of Warcraft.

The Deviants also get done dirty, going from this unique culture where no two beings look alike to generic space monsters.

I feel bad for the Eternals concept as a whole. It was never meant to be in the Marvel Universe to begin with, but it could have worked with enough effort. And initially, that effort was made, until Gaiman and those that came after him basically sucked the life out of the property, and then Zhao came along and went beyond sucking the life from it to just sucking.
So in summary, I don't consider this a good movie, and it's in the bottom pile of MCU films I don't plan to ever watch again.
I haven't seen it yet but I have read the write-up so know what happens. I've long been against any major changes to established characters (race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality etc.) so I wasn't going to be the greatest fan of this movie in the first place but had hopes it would at least be a fun superhero movie, however from what I've read I'll be even more pissed off when I do finally see it.
Spoiler
Of course they make the straight, white male the villainous one :roll: , it's especially annoying as Ikaris is probably the most traditionally heroic Eternal in the comics (oh and race swapping Kingo, an already established minority character makes no sense, personally I'd much rather have seen Samurai warrior Kingo)
And yes, outside of an update to their basic appearance (such as with Blade) changing the original comic book versions so they appear more like the movie version is always stupid.
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Re: Eternals MCU

Post by Davies »

Ares wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:57 pm I'm not a fan of this movie.
Spoiler

I do appreciate that if they were intending to make Makari deaf in the movie that they actually hired a deaf actress to do it, but . . .why would the Celestials create a deaf Eternal? That makes no sense. You create an immortal, super durable cosmic enforcer who can run faster than sound, and instead of their ears just being designed to deal with sonic booms and the like, you make them deaf? Making it really easy for someone to sneak up on them and kill them? That's just stupid.
Addressing just this one part of it:
Spoiler
1. We don't really see the world through Makkari's perspective -- it is possible that she possesses senses that compensate for her lack of auditory input while still hindering her ability to communicate through speech. Suppose that she has some sort of radar-like ability -- very useful for anyone who moves at very high speeds!

2. The Eternals are expendable in the Celestials' view. Those who succeed in their mission are rescued, those who are lost, well, they've got more. Lots more, as the film shows.

3. Arishem is a flawed creator who creates flawed things. The Deviants were created to hunt one kind of prey, they changed to hunt others. The Eternals were created to never change or evolve, it takes millions of years but they do start changing, and, as the post-credits scene reveals, this is not limited to those who came to Earth.
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Re: Eternals MCU

Post by Ares »

Davies wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:34 am Addressing just this one part of it:
Spoiler
1. We don't really see the world through Makkari's perspective -- it is possible that she possesses senses that compensate for her lack of auditory input while still hindering her ability to communicate through speech. Suppose that she has some sort of radar-like ability -- very useful for anyone who moves at very high speeds!

2. The Eternals are expendable in the Celestials' view. Those who succeed in their mission are rescued, those who are lost, well, they've got more. Lots more, as the film shows.

3. Arishem is a flawed creator who creates flawed things. The Deviants were created to hunt one kind of prey, they changed to hunt others. The Eternals were created to never change or evolve, it takes millions of years but they do start changing, and, as the post-credits scene reveals, this is not limited to those who came to Earth.
Spoiler
1. It's possible, but unlikely. The movie makes it clear that all of the Eternals that Ikaris is the only Eternal with multiple powers, and everyone else is limited to a single ability. There's no evidence even hinted in the film that Makkari possesses any abilities other than superspeed, and definitely not any enhanced senses like you suggest.

2. The Eternals are expendable in the sense that Celestials don't really care if they die, but they are programmed to do a job that the Celestials depend on for the continuation of their species. As such, they have every reason to make the Eternals as capable as possible. The fact that only Ikaris has the abilities he does is actually equally stupid, but again, this adaptation is based off of the Gaiman update (which I'm not a fan of) and the Eternals were purposefully nerfed so that A) Ikaris would be able to give the entire team a decent fight and B) the similarly nerfed Deviants would actually pose something of a threat to them. So the decision was dumb all around, but it's extra dumb in Makkari's case, as she's the only Eternal with a physical flaw. The Celestials need the Eternals to succeed, the teams are isolated from each other and apparently can't expect any back up, and they've been doing this job on multiple worlds. So the Eternals are technically expendable, but they're also all designed to do their job effectively.

3. Arishem is a flawed creator, but mostly in the sense of his creations going beyond their programming. The Deviants were made to out-predator any predator, but they didn't know when to stop. The Eternals were programmed to kill the Deviants once they did their job, and they did that on multiple planets before this run apparently allowed most of them to reject their programming and develop full on free will. But those are flaws are psychological rather than purely physical the way deafness is. When Thena started to show signs of the Eternal equivalent of "mental illness", that's again a psychological issue as she's remembering things she was supposed to have forgotten, and the Eternals default plan was to do a factory reset on her, which they only avoided because Gilgamesh promised to take care of her. In terms of physical abilities, the Eternals and Deviants did exactly what they were supposed to do. The problem was all in the mental programming because it's in the nature of beings with any kind of thought process to adapt over time.

Again, I appreciate that they hired a deaf actress to play a deaf character, possibly for a role that was designed for her. I'd applaud that kind of inclusion if they were were doing a Daredevil film and hired a deaf woman to play Echo. But for this franchise, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially not this version of the franchise.
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Re: Eternals MCU

Post by Ares »

I will say that the Eternals makes me kind of wish Marvel had just stopped the current iteration of the MCU with Avengers: Endgame, maybe using Spider-Man Far From Home as a way to tie a little bow on the franchise and show that the world will be okay. Over 10 years of continuity across 23 films definitely isn't bad, and it tells a pretty complete story.

Now that they have their formula pretty figured out and they have the rights to franchises like the Fantastic Four, the X-Men and Spider-Man again, they'd have the chance to do a new version of the MCU but this time start it right with everyone how they should be. They can also avoid some of the earlier issues and ambiguities, such as whether or not Asgardians are gods, if magic really exists, etc. It could now also avoid the numerous retcons like what we saw in Captain Marvel and Thor: Ragnarok.

During the filming of Endgame, I'd have had everyone figuring out what the new iteration of the MCU would be, how its history would work, make the whole thing even more cohesive and have an even more concrete plan in place. And with the recent adaptations of certain characters, you can now spend as little time as you need introducing the new versions of those characters. Everyone knows Iron Man and Captain America's origins, so you can either allude to them or do more simple versions of them. You also now know how MCU fans will happily embrace everything if done well enough, so you could easily have an Invaders series where Cap teams up with other Golden Age Marvel heroes, establish Union Jack as a Legacy Hero, have Prof. X and Magneto start their feud in the 60s but have something happen to slow their aging so that they both are still fighting in the modern era, kick off the modern heroic age with the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man, etc.

In that vein, I'd actually give the Eternals something more of the aesthetic they gave the the MCU Asgardians, with a kind of cosmic Kirby technology, design stylings and the like, while giving the Asgardians the full on god treatment from the beginning, and make it clear that their abilities are magical/supernatural in nature, rather than cosmic the way the Eternals are. Heck, I'd probably lead up to a full on conflict between the Asgardians, the Olympians, the Eternals and some other pantheons. Actually incorporate the Eternals into Marvel's history from the get go instead of after the fact, possibly by having some of them show up in earlier movies. Like maybe Charles helps get tutoring in his telepathic abilities from Ajak, who shows up later having never aged at all during that time. Stuff like that.
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Re: Eternals MCU

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Covid-19 Delta continues to surge in my area, as we've entered the cold, dry period of winter air (and frankly, because of concerted vaccine resistance in the neighboring rural counties), so I did not end up seeing the film in a theater, though I likely will watch The Eternals on Disney Plus next year. The primary criticisms I've read (leaving aside nonsense from anti-SJWs about the deliberate diversity) are the lack of character development (an ensemble of10-12 heroes does NOT make for in-depth takes), and the (very) slow pacing. The latter is likely a result of the wrong director; simply because a given artist is talented and enjoying acclaim doesn't make the person right for EVERY project. In fact, far from getting Marvel Studios any "cred" with critics, I think the opposite happened, with the "serious" critics piling on the movie because they were disappointed one of "their own" actually crossed over to make a commercial blockbuster, employing a lot of Marvel's proven storytelling methods in the process.

Getting a bit late, so I'll finish up my thoughts on the Eternals as an MCU concept tomorrow.

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Re: Eternals MCU

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The major problem with the Eternals is that (like Shang-Chi) they were NOT originally intended to be part of the Marvel U, and hence have to be shoe-horned into the same setting as the Avengers, Spider-Man, etc., along with Hercules/Heracles and the other Greek Gods, whom the Eternals were clearly meant to ACTUALLY REPLACE in Kirby's original conception. Given the MCU already has a set of "space gods' in the Asgardians, I don't have any problems with the Eternals being divorced from their roots and ethnic/racial diversity among their ranks, even leaving aside today's sensibilities (and the changing make-up of the USA).

To me, the interesting angle is how the Eternals have moved on since humanity moved away from worshipping earthbound gods and demigods, and what pursuits they individually choose to occupy their time while waiting for the "higher purpose" of the Celestials to be fulfilled. And what effect did the advent of superhumans have on their outlooks? When you've been revered by mortals as godlike, what happens once many more are now your equal or superior in power?

The Deviants also provide a lot of possibilities-Kirby treated them mostly as monsters or demons, though a couple such as Karkas were not malicious, but they really should be more than that-they could easily be the inspiration for the fair folk, shapechangers/skinwalkers, Japanese Oni, and other races who served as foes AND friends to mankind. The less-removed Deviants might even have been among the earliest super-heroes and villains, or inspired various battlefield and urban legends. And if an otherwise heroic Eternal was still subservient to the Celestials (indifferent if not hostile to life on Earth), otherwise hostile or destructive Deviants might well prove allies to human heroes.

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Re: Eternals MCU

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The Deviants also provide a lot of possibilities-Kirby treated them mostly as monsters or demons, though a couple such as Karkas were not malicious, but they really should be more than that-they could easily be the inspiration for the fair folk, shapechangers/skinwalkers, Japanese Oni, and other races who served as foes AND friends to mankind. The less-removed Deviants might even have been among the earliest super-heroes and villains, or inspired various battlefield and urban legends. And if an otherwise heroic Eternal was still subservient to the Celestials (indifferent if not hostile to life on Earth), otherwise hostile or destructive Deviants might well prove allies to human heroes
They actually show this in the movie with the babylon scenes where gilgamesh takes on the massive bull Deviant thus creating the legend of the bull of the heavens So yeah i think thats what Zoe intended with her vision that the deviants like the eternals were behind or an inspiration for many of the myths of shapeshifters tricksters and other such fay and other monsters throught history while leaving room for actual shapeshifters and such as well
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