Jab’s Power Profiles: Deleted 2nd Edition Powers- Ward! Area Effects!

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OwOMotaros
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by OwOMotaros »

The Senses effect is probably my favorite power in the game. You can make sooooo much stuff with it, it's incredible. It's also incredibly useful in-game, I usually end up overusing it on most of my PCs (hell, even my NPCs. You get Senses, YOU get Senses, EVERYONE GETS SENSES!!!)
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

The distinction between Detect which is supposed to act on a particular thing, and Awareness, which is supposed to work on a descriptor, does get a bit hazy. Doesn't help that they also differ in that Detect starts at touch range, and Awareness starts at ranged. And, as I noticed earlier, the book does suggest that they should be tied to a sense type, although it gets very hazy as to whether you get any benefits from that sense type, or if they're supposed to go away with the sense type if it's blocked in some way.

And I can see things going either way. Some people who can see ghosts can't see them with their eyes closed, or when blinded. Others, when blinded, just use their ghost vision to at least see the ghosts. I suppose that could be the distinction between a dazzle power that works over all vision, or one that only works in a particular type of vision, but you saw them see such effects being that granular. And, again, you get into questions of what extras they get, if any, for tying to that sense.

For what it's worth, with Innate, Steve Kenson has pointed out that it shouldn't be on as many powers as it is. It's supposed to be for things that are truly unable to be turned off or countered, like an elephant's size. Things like senses, you can imagine all kinds of situations involving blindfolds, field that distort the vision, etc. Having eyes is an innate aspect, not seeing.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by Jabroniville »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:12 pm The distinction between Detect which is supposed to act on a particular thing, and Awareness, which is supposed to work on a descriptor, does get a bit hazy. Doesn't help that they also differ in that Detect starts at touch range, and Awareness starts at ranged. And, as I noticed earlier, the book does suggest that they should be tied to a sense type, although it gets very hazy as to whether you get any benefits from that sense type, or if they're supposed to go away with the sense type if it's blocked in some way.

And I can see things going either way. Some people who can see ghosts can't see them with their eyes closed, or when blinded. Others, when blinded, just use their ghost vision to at least see the ghosts. I suppose that could be the distinction between a dazzle power that works over all vision, or one that only works in a particular type of vision, but you saw them see such effects being that granular. And, again, you get into questions of what extras they get, if any, for tying to that sense.
Yeah it can get kinda granular in a weird way for stuff like that. I'd imagine this leads to some player/GM fights, lol.
For what it's worth, with Innate, Steve Kenson has pointed out that it shouldn't be on as many powers as it is. It's supposed to be for things that are truly unable to be turned off or countered, like an elephant's size. Things like senses, you can imagine all kinds of situations involving blindfolds, field that distort the vision, etc. Having eyes is an innate aspect, not seeing.
I feel like that's my least-favorite Feat in the whole book, lol. Technically dozens of powers should be Innate like that. Any arthropod with Extra Limbs, any animal's senses, etc. Mutant Powers can be turned off, but in cases like Forearm, he was supposed to retain his arms even when depowered because they were physically a part of him.

The only thing that as-written should be incredibly common but isn't is "Noticeable", as it describes how armored guys should have it for their Protection... which means like Iron Man, The Thing, Armadillo, etc. should all have Noticeable because they look like they're hard to hurt, compared to someone like Superman or Thor.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by EternalPhoenix »

The gripe I have about how Senses work is a fundamental one. Apparently Bystanders can't see or hear anything past 200 feet. The DC for detecting something out in the open in 0, so with over -20 in range penalties they literally can't make the roll. Which, uh, I need new glasses pretty bad and I can see further than that. Maybe not like, a mouse. But a person? They'd be blurry, but yeah I can.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by Jack of Spades »

I don't find visual Concealment under-priced in practice, because at least in my campaign virtually everyone has at least one accurate non-sight sense. Maybe that's just my players though.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

EternalPhoenix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:51 pm The gripe I have about how Senses work is a fundamental one. Apparently Bystanders can't see or hear anything past 200 feet. The DC for detecting something out in the open in 0, so with over -20 in range penalties they literally can't make the roll. Which, uh, I need new glasses pretty bad and I can see further than that. Maybe not like, a mouse. But a person? They'd be blurry, but yeah I can.
I remember, back on the old board, someone pointing out that a 100 ft increment for sight works out a bit better in that, with no skill ranks, a 20 lets you see something about a mile out, which is not too far from human sight. Problem is, it messes with that most people have trouble seeing details from a fairly short distance, and the "-1 per 10 feet" is meant more for "Can you spot this detail from this distance".
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by greycrusader »

This sort of thing happens because the game mechanics aren't really designed to reflect normal human capabilities, it's made for characters that start at least at Cinematic or Pulp Action levels (PL 5+), working best for truly superhuman heroes. So matters get a little wonky at the lower end of the scale, like STR 4, which is supposedly well within "non-powered human" limits, but allows a person to lift and carry around 400lbs without any particular strain whatsoever.
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Re: Senses

Post by JDRook »

Jabroniville wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:22 am SENSES:
...
Fixing It?: It's been suggested that some Senses could be made Alternate Effects of other ones, to show that someone who's paying attention to scents won't be focusing on Low-Light Vision or Enhanced Hearing at the same time. It makes some sense, but of course your default senses aren't done this way. It'd be up to the GM.
Strictly speaking, Senses are Permanent Effects and therefore can't be made into Alternate Effects or an Array. The technical workaround would be to make the Senses Sustained, although this also makes them Noticeable. You could use Subtle to compensate for that, with 2 ranks being the simplest method, although Subtle 1 limited to exotic senses might work well for magical or psionic senses whose use can be detected by similarly powered folk. Sustained Senses would also have the issue of shutting down when Stunned, KO'd or sleeping (no being awakened by loud noises) so if bought in an Array you may also want to compensate by buying up to Continuous.

In short, making a rules-legal Senses Array where the senses still function as expected would be more costly and more complex than is apparent, but again, it's a GM call whether that should be permitted.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by JDRook »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 3:19 am
EternalPhoenix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:51 pm The gripe I have about how Senses work is a fundamental one. Apparently Bystanders can't see or hear anything past 200 feet. The DC for detecting something out in the open in 0, so with over -20 in range penalties they literally can't make the roll. Which, uh, I need new glasses pretty bad and I can see further than that. Maybe not like, a mouse. But a person? They'd be blurry, but yeah I can.
I remember, back on the old board, someone pointing out that a 100 ft increment for sight works out a bit better in that, with no skill ranks, a 20 lets you see something about a mile out, which is not too far from human sight. Problem is, it messes with that most people have trouble seeing details from a fairly short distance, and the "-1 per 10 feet" is meant more for "Can you spot this detail from this distance".
I like the free Visual Extended, but agree detail doesn't work out, so if you want to get houserule-y, say that free extension is good for Accurate but not Acute Sight, so you may be able to tell there's something over 200' away from you, but you couldn't really be sure what it is. You could potentially target and hit it (don't forget range penalties) but it'd be poor practice to fire on anything which you can't confirm identity. Something like that would be more realistic and potentially make for some greater suspense moments in play.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by Jabroniville »

OwOMotaros wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:48 am The Senses effect is probably my favorite power in the game. You can make sooooo much stuff with it, it's incredible. It's also incredibly useful in-game, I usually end up overusing it on most of my PCs (hell, even my NPCs. You get Senses, YOU get Senses, EVERYONE GETS SENSES!!!)
Oh yeah? What crazy stuff have you been using it for? I forget.
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Re: Senses

Post by Jabroniville »

JDRook wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:18 am
Strictly speaking, Senses are Permanent Effects and therefore can't be made into Alternate Effects or an Array. The technical workaround would be to make the Senses Sustained, although this also makes them Noticeable. You could use Subtle to compensate for that, with 2 ranks being the simplest method, although Subtle 1 limited to exotic senses might work well for magical or psionic senses whose use can be detected by similarly powered folk. Sustained Senses would also have the issue of shutting down when Stunned, KO'd or sleeping (no being awakened by loud noises) so if bought in an Array you may also want to compensate by buying up to Continuous.

In short, making a rules-legal Senses Array where the senses still function as expected would be more costly and more complex than is apparent, but again, it's a GM call whether that should be permitted.
I forget- where does it say that Sustained effects are Noticeable by default?
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by EternalPhoenix »

JDRook wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:27 am
FuzzyBoots wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 3:19 am
EternalPhoenix wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:51 pm The gripe I have about how Senses work is a fundamental one. Apparently Bystanders can't see or hear anything past 200 feet. The DC for detecting something out in the open in 0, so with over -20 in range penalties they literally can't make the roll. Which, uh, I need new glasses pretty bad and I can see further than that. Maybe not like, a mouse. But a person? They'd be blurry, but yeah I can.
I remember, back on the old board, someone pointing out that a 100 ft increment for sight works out a bit better in that, with no skill ranks, a 20 lets you see something about a mile out, which is not too far from human sight. Problem is, it messes with that most people have trouble seeing details from a fairly short distance, and the "-1 per 10 feet" is meant more for "Can you spot this detail from this distance".
I like the free Visual Extended, but agree detail doesn't work out, so if you want to get houserule-y, say that free extension is good for Accurate but not Acute Sight, so you may be able to tell there's something over 200' away from you, but you couldn't really be sure what it is. You could potentially target and hit it (don't forget range penalties) but it'd be poor practice to fire on anything which you can't confirm identity. Something like that would be more realistic and potentially make for some greater suspense moments in play.
If it was up to me, I'd add bonuses or penalties based on the size of the object being viewed. A car shouldn't get much of anything, if it does at all. The same for something the size of the average elementary schooler. But a big container ship like the Ever Given or an insect like the average housefly ought to. Loud enough sounds should also qualify for a bonus, but nobody should want to be at the center of one of those. They're typically large explosions such as extremely powerful volcanic eruptions. Krakatoa was heard hundreds of miles away, for example. Though this could also be just the GM lowering the DC or automatically letting the players pass, too.
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Re: Senses

Post by JDRook »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:17 am I forget- where does it say that Sustained effects are Noticeable by default?
M&M3eDHH p144 wrote:NOTICING POWER EFFECTS
Effects with a duration of instant, concentration, or sustained must be noticeable in some way. For example, a Blast effect might have a visible beam or make a loud noise (ZAP!) or both. Some effects are quite obvious, such as Flight, Insubstantiality, Growth, or Shrinking. Effects with a continuous or
permanent duration are not noticeable by default.

If an instant, concentration, or sustained effect’s base duration is changed using modifiers, the effect remains noticeable. A continuous or permanent effect made instant, concentration, or sustained also becomes noticeable. The Subtle modifier (see page 196) can make noticeable powers difficult or impossible to detect. Conversely, the Noticeable modifier (see page 200) makes a normally subtle effect noticeable.
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Re: Jab's Power Profiles: Communication! Concealment!

Post by FuzzyBoots »

And while it is not strictly in the rules, Devices should probably also have their powers technically be Noticeable by default, since they are effectively not Permanent, since you can put them on and take them off. So Iron Man's armor is Noticeable, as armor.
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Mind Reading

Post by Jabroniville »

MIND READING:

Effect:
You can, uh, read minds. That's it. For 2 points per rank, make an opposed check against the Will Save of the other guy. They give you a handy little chart to make it clear: 1 Degree of Success: Surface thoughts and present thoughts. 2 Degrees of Success: Deeper personal thoughts and asking one question. 3 Degrees of Success: Read all the memories and recollections. 4 Degrees of Success: Read even the subconscious, going deeper and finding things the target might not even know. Not that characters with high Will Saves (Captain America, Superman, etc.) can make it REALLY hard to get above 2 degrees of success. Mind Readers are subject to PL rules and can't break their Power Level with Mind Reading (a Perception-ranged effect).

Failing to read a mind with two degrees of failure means you need Extra Effort to try again. Succeeding but wanting MORE contact means you have to take a standard action to make another check. The target gains a new Will Check every turn to shut you out, ending the effect. Using your Deception against the other's Insight can make them think about the exact thing you're searching for.

A primary consideration with this power is how potentially game-breaking it is to even include it. In the comics it usually isn't THAT crazy, but GMs are somewhat notorious for forgetting a complicated story featuring someone with a secret can be ruined INSTANTLY by just one player on their team packing Mind Reading and sussing it out with too good a roll. Comic book writers often throw in BS reasons why this isn't possible.

Note that "Telepathy" in the comics is treated in M&M terms as linking Mind Reading and Communication (Mental) together into one power-set. As one is 2 points/rank and the other 4, but usually with Area or Selective as Extras, you're looking at a pricey base power, often as part of an array.

Reflecting the comic book Mind Reading abilities of Professor X and others is tricky- in comics it either works or it doesn't. Sometimes characters (especially those Xavier trained) are shown as having "Psychic Defenses", but typically this prevents MIND CONTROL, not Reading. And even then is only rarely displayed- many times characters can be mind-read when a past story has them resistant.

Who Uses It?: Extremely common at Marvel in particular, as the X-Books LOVE Psychic characters- Professor X, Jean Grey, Emma Frost, etc. For a while nearly every X-team had one, and "Telepathic/Telekinetic" was once THE cliched top-tier power-set at Marvel. It's less common elsewhere, but still around. Martian Manhunter is DC's most prominent example, but the second-most is far distant. Empath, Deanna Troi from Star Trek: TNG and others do the "Emotions Only" variant.

Extras & Flaws: Cumulative allows you to add past successes to your current effect, like making two degrees of contact for two successful single-degrees. Effortless removes the "extra effort" weakness mentioned above- you can now simply keep trying no matter what. Sensory Link is an Extra that lets you use "Remote Sensing" from someone whose mind you're reading- something very common with comic book psychics.

Subtle is more tricky- it's only noticeable to the subject and mentally-gifted people to start. Subtle 1 makes it a DC 20 check to detect it from either type of character. Subtle 2 makes it completely undetectable.

The Flaws are numerous. Limited to Emotions is really common (for "Empaths"). Limited to Language, Limited to Sensory Link (meaning the Feat is the ONLY thing you can use it for), and Limited to Surface Thoguhts are there. You can make it Ranged, requiring an attack check instead of having it go automatically, or even Close Range (-2 overall). Sense-Dependent means you have to see them, hear them, etc. Feedback means you take adamage if the person who's mind you're reading is harmed.

Related Stuff: As stated, "Telepathy" links this to Communication (Mental). Most Psionic types also have Mental Blast, Mind Control and other crazy powers, often in a Dynamic Array, meaning everything costs 1-point more.

How Effective Is It?: Mind Reading is a tricky one, because either the GM can dick you over by going "Uh, you can't read his mind" or you can bugger up his entire campaign if he forgets you can do that and you read the mind of the "secret villain". Sometimes there's no benefit to reading someone's mind (*enemy freaks out and threatens death* "I sense great anger, Captain").

Fixing It?: Not really much to it. It's a bit pricey with all the extra stuff attached, but high-level Telepaths in comics are quite potent, and Mind Control is often the most expensive power in the array anyways.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Mar 04, 2024 12:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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