Jab’s Power Profiles: Deleted 2nd Edition Powers- Ward! Area Effects!

[JDRook]

If you don't get caught up in the name and just play the mechanics, it's a nifty trait for a martial artist to have in their arsenal. Being prone means you're also easier to hit in melee (+5) but a harder target at range (-5), so "slithering" would allow you to move at full speed (instead of hindered) and more easily avoid gunfire and the like. (Serpentine!) It takes away your attack penalty while prone, but doesn't take away a close opponent's bonus to attack you, so you could make a surprise comeback from the ground, or more likely a trip attack to bring them down as well.

[squirrelly-sama]

MOVEMENT- SLITHERING:

Effect: One of the oddest powers, it's effectively just "you can move while prone on the ground", which means that being tripped doesn't harm your movement. And also suffer no circumstance penalty for attacking while prone. Essentially, this power is "Being a Snake".

Who Uses It?: Snakes, Octopi, Snails and other creatures that slither on the ground do this- Bushmaster of the Serpent Society, having a snake lower-half, would as well. It's quite the odd little power and I wonder who came up with it. Someone probably saw the rules for "Prone Fighting" and went "oh yeah but snakes can do this just fine" and figured they'd throw in a power for it (it's probably an old D&D thing). Like with Wall-Crawling, I find this a neat little power to throw on to let people know you're paying attention and thinking of all the "little things" characters can do, lol.

Extras & Flaws: None, really.

Related Stuff: Snakey stuff like grappling- most of these characters have kind of a "Fighting on the Ground" nature, so grab-based stuff often fits.

How Effective Is It?: It's twice as expensive as Prone Fighting, but it's basically Prone Fighting + Feature- Can Move While Prone. So like... it's fine. Just saves typing.

Fixing It?: A fine low-utility weirdo power.

Iirc Prone fighting actually has more benefits, in that it removes the bonus to being hit in melee while slithering doesn't.

[JDRook]

MOVEMENT- SLITHERING:
...
How Effective Is It?: It's twice as expensive as Prone Fighting, but it's basically Prone Fighting + Feature- Can Move While Prone. So like... it's fine. Just saves typing.

Iirc Prone fighting actually has more benefits, in that it removes the bonus to being hit in melee while slithering doesn't.

Looks like you remember correctly. Both descriptions are pretty short relative to the other Advantages/Movement Effects on the same respective page, but the upshot is Slithering takes away the Hindered condition of Prone, Prone Fighting takes away the attack bonus of adjacent close attackers, and both remove the attack penalty for being Prone. One would think they should probably cost the same, with maybe a 2nd rank to cover everything.

[Jabroniville]

Iirc Prone fighting actually has more benefits, in that it removes the bonus to being hit in melee while slithering doesn't.

Ah, I missed that part while reading "Prone Fighting".

[squirrelly-sama]

MOVEMENT- SLITHERING:
...
How Effective Is It?: It's twice as expensive as Prone Fighting, but it's basically Prone Fighting + Feature- Can Move While Prone. So like... it's fine. Just saves typing.

Iirc Prone fighting actually has more benefits, in that it removes the bonus to being hit in melee while slithering doesn't.

Looks like you remember correctly. Both descriptions are pretty short relative to the other Advantages/Movement Effects on the same respective page, but the upshot is Slithering takes away the Hindered condition of Prone, Prone Fighting takes away the attack bonus of adjacent close attackers, and both remove the attack penalty for being Prone. One would think they should probably cost the same, with maybe a 2nd rank to cover everything.

Hindered is just a mediocre condition anyway, seriously counteracting it is as simple as a 1pp power. Technically a limited version of that power since it'd be Speed limited to while prone. Take Prone Fighting and a rank of speed and you outdo Slithering movement quite a bit for the same price. Heck you can just go 2 ranks of limited speed and do that thing you see those characters do where they seem to slither or crawl faster than they run. So better effects, better flavor, and the same price.

[Batgirl III]

I saw Cold Slither open for Pizzazz and the Misfits in ‘85, man.

[Jabroniville]

MOVEMENT- PERMEATE:

Effect: "Like Insubstantial But Worse"- it's the same power, except you can only pass through things- you're still vulnerable to attack. 1 Rank lets you move through things at -2 speed, 2 Ranks lets you move at -1 speed, and 3 Ranks lets you move at your normal speed. You cannot breathe within things, and it notes other flaws like how you can't see where you're going without the right Senses.

Who Uses It?: This is INCREDIBLY uncommon and I suspect it's one of those things that's there because D&D had it, or for the occasional character who moves through things but isn't impervious to attacks. Like Neophyte of the Acolytes is one of very few characters I can think of who does this. A few elementalists can move through their own element as if it's not even there, too.

Extras & Flaws: Limited to One Substance is very common.

Related Stuff: Insubstantial is the better version of this, but costs accordingly- 5-20 points vs. 2-6 points.

How Effective Is It?: Kinda/sorta. Read liberally, it's 2 points to get out of nearly any trap in the world. Like can you can just get out of ropes or chains? It says specifically "move through objects" though.

Fixing It?: I dunno with this one- it doesn't set off the alarm bells the way some powers or "MinMax Tricks" do but I can imagine some people being sneaky with it.

[JDRook]

If Insubstantial is too expensive or too beyond concept but you still want to phase through walls, Permeate is the way. Speedsters who want the Flash-style vibrating through substances can do it for a few points instead of power-stunting off their Speed. Vibration-themed Energy Controllers might also want this in their back pocket.

I tried making a low-cost Kitty Pride with Permeate and maxed Dodge/Parry with Uncanny Dodge to simulate Phasing. Besides cost, there's also the advantage of not needing to add Affects Corporeal to her strength or other attacks. Pulling people into walls with a Permeate Attack may be something to discuss with the GM.

[Jabroniville]

Hindered is just a mediocre condition anyway, seriously counteracting it is as simple as a 1pp power. Technically a limited version of that power since it'd be Speed limited to while prone. Take Prone Fighting and a rank of speed and you outdo Slithering movement quite a bit for the same price. Heck you can just go 2 ranks of limited speed and do that thing you see those characters do where they seem to slither or crawl faster than they run. So better effects, better flavor, and the same price.

This seems to be a central thing- that Speed is so good that most other movement powers are just "Shittier Speed". It's not so much that the other powers are bad, but that Speed is way too good XD.

[FuzzyBoots]

Hmm, And also this may be one of the rare cases where using something like halved, or zero, does make more sense than an additive change. I know the argument has been made that, since mutants and masterminds is largely an additive system, things like Vulnerable, half Immunity, or third edition Impervious, don't work for proper PL scaling because they do rely on fractions rather than adding or subtracting. But here, just removing one off the speed for things that should normally have your speed, like being forced to crawl, or go through negative terrain, does mean that all you need to do is add a little bit more speed.

[Batgirl III]

Hence why I think some Effects should have an increased cost for their first Rank. Like a tariff.

Speed, 2 PP for rank one, 1 PP for every additional rank; Flight, 5 PP for rank one, 2 PP for every additional rank; Swimming/Leaping/Burrowing, 1 PP per rank…

[squirrelly-sama]

Hindered is just a mediocre condition anyway, seriously counteracting it is as simple as a 1pp power. Technically a limited version of that power since it'd be Speed limited to while prone. Take Prone Fighting and a rank of speed and you outdo Slithering movement quite a bit for the same price. Heck you can just go 2 ranks of limited speed and do that thing you see those characters do where they seem to slither or crawl faster than they run. So better effects, better flavor, and the same price.

This seems to be a central thing- that Speed is so good that most other movement powers are just "Shittier Speed". It's not so much that the other powers are bad, but that Speed is way too good XD.

I really disagree. Speed is probably a good standard for what movement should be and it's a fair cost for it's usefulness. Ultimately what it does is eliminate the likelihood of you just spending your whole turn doing nothing just to get close to the target. It's not too good, it's just something that's basically a requirement to be bought up to avoid massive frustration from spending 2 or three turns just running from point A to Point B on the same map. I mean, sure you can go around with your defense and toughness at 2 each in a PL10 game because you're a normie outside of throwing fire blasts but that's going to really suck when your character gets completely obliterated the moment something so much as grazes them. Even if you bump up the cost of Speed people are still going to buy, because it's not just something that's nice to have, it something that feels like a necessity, probably more so than something like having good defenses because defense is dynamic, you roll for that and you can get something high or low but rarely get a guarantee of success or failure, each ranks just adds a little bit. Speed however, or the lack of it, is more discreet, the moment something is more than 30 feet away and you need to get close you're completely screwed since that's your whole turn wasted just getting closer be it 35 feet or a full 60 feet away.

Honestly a lot of those movement powers suck just because they suck, even if speed didn't exist or was more expensive people probably still wouldn't take them if they didn't have to. Burrowing gets massively screwed over by how it's structured and is something very limited in the types of characters who could even justify taking it, I already tore it down to the pros and cons of it's mechanics. Leaping is basically just a limited flight and is actually better than speed given it gives you a whole new dimension of movement but is overlooked mostly because speed is just simpler, as well as probably the idea of how derpy it'd be to constantly leap frog high in the air to move far. Flight and Teleport are significantly more powerful than speed with prices that don't match their absurd benefits. General movement powers probably can't be compared to speed given they don't actually even give you any increased distance but just unlock more options to use your Speed on for an upfront cost, something that really should have been the default for all the movement powers, but their problem is that they over charge for a lot of really useless things and stuff that mechanically just doesn't add up (a common problem in the system, just look at growth and shrinking where the combined benefits are a full point per rank different from the cost of the powers). The only universe where Sure-Footed is a fair price for it's effect is a universe where Speed is 4 points per rank.

[Spectrum]

Iirc Prone fighting actually has more benefits, in that it removes the bonus to being hit in melee while slithering doesn't.

Looks like you remember correctly. Both descriptions are pretty short relative to the other Advantages/Movement Effects on the same respective page, but the upshot is Slithering takes away the Hindered condition of Prone, Prone Fighting takes away the attack bonus of adjacent close attackers, and both remove the attack penalty for being Prone. One would think they should probably cost the same, with maybe a 2nd rank to cover everything.

Hindered is just a mediocre condition anyway, seriously counteracting it is as simple as a 1pp power. Technically a limited version of that power since it'd be Speed limited to while prone. Take Prone Fighting and a rank of speed and you outdo Slithering movement quite a bit for the same price. Heck you can just go 2 ranks of limited speed and do that thing you see those characters do where they seem to slither or crawl faster than they run. So better effects, better flavor, and the same price.

The math could get get kinda weird there by going to the rank of speed route.

Prone restricts movement to one half. Would the ranks of speed add to the math pre ((x+1)/2)or post ((x/2)+1)halving?

Would this idea work the way that I think? Stay prone constantly. Use prone fighting to offset your added difficulty to attack and remove an attackers bonus to hit you in melee. Offset the movement penalty.. somehow. You would still retain the benefit of 'concealment' against ranged attacks, giving you an effective +5 on your defenses.

Maybe throw in something like 'hide in plain sight' because you are always considered to be in concealment to ranged attacks?

[Batgirl III]

I don’t ever really play M&M using overly detailed movement tracking and grid maps – heck I rarely run D&D that way – but I’m now wondering if giving every heroic character a “free” base movement value of 40’ or even 60’ might be worthwhile?

I’ve never seen the Batman rushing down an alley after some goon and not reach him within a panel or two.

[FuzzyBoots]

I don’t ever really play M&M using overly detailed movement tracking and grid maps – heck I rarely run D&D that way – but I’m now wondering if giving every heroic character a “free” base movement value of 40’ or even 60’ might be worthwhile?

I’ve never seen the Batman rushing down an alley after some goon and not reach him within a panel or two.

Although, of course, there's always double movement, and the athletics check, the latter of which has no real restriction in the system for trying it. I remember in one past game, where most of the people had fairly normal movement, everyone was constantly trying to sprint, even with very tiny athletics bonuses, because why not?