Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Ken »

Lord I hate Doomsday.

At the time... The story was too similar to a story done with Despero* two-and-half years earlier in Justice League America. Besides questioning the need for the story at all (this was in real time, mind you; Lois and Clark was still a year from debuting), it was just "mindless monster tears through the heroes." It was awful. The only clever thing that I had noticed was that each subsequent issue had one fewer panels per page than the previous issue. Adventures of Superman #497 had 4 panels per page, a week later, Action #684 had 3 panels per page, and so on. Which I also took as an indicator of how little story there actually was to the story.

In 1986 or so, Despero inexplicably went from a space-chess playing genius to a half-naked juiced up monster. Inexplicably, his head fin turned 90 degrees at the time. To this day I wonder how much the new Despero and Savage Dragon influenced each other's appearances.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Skavenger »

Ken wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:31 am Lord I hate Doomsday.

At the time... The story was too similar to a story done with Despero* two-and-half years earlier in Justice League America. Besides questioning the need for the story at all (this was in real time, mind you; Lois and Clark was still a year from debuting), it was just "mindless monster tears through the heroes." It was awful. The only clever thing that I had noticed was that each subsequent issue had one fewer panels per page than the previous issue. Adventures of Superman #497 had 4 panels per page, a week later, Action #684 had 3 panels per page, and so on. Which I also took as an indicator of how little story there actually was to the story.

In 1986 or so, Despero inexplicably went from a space-chess playing genius to a half-naked juiced up monster. Inexplicably, his head fin turned 90 degrees at the time. To this day I wonder how much the new Despero and Savage Dragon influenced each other's appearances.
The only thing I'll give Doomsday is that he was a rather unique villain for Superman, someone who could actually go toe-to-toe with him physically, since most of his villains tend to challenge him mentally. How to approach Metallo when he's packing Kryptonite? How to deal with Parasite if he can't touch him? Even Brainiac tends to be a cerebral battle in his own way, trying to deal with or negotiate through that bizarre logic he has. Even Zod tended to be "how do I outthink someone with the same powers as me" rather than "just sit there and pound on each other for hours."

And I don't begrudge the panels diminishing, if you're doing a story that big, you give the artists room to flex. You just have to know how to make sure it has impact...maybe they should have just done two issues with a visual gimmick.

Everything else about Doomsday, though? Ugh.
Quasimofo
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:33 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Quasimofo »

Doomsday and Juggernaut are basically the same deal - just an unstoppable powerhouse who punches things. But Jugs has character and personality, and he's managed to stay pretty consistent since the 1960s. He's been relevant for decades, Doomsday was relevant for a couple years. And while Jugs has had his share of Worf moments, he still maintains his cred. They really should have just let Doomsday stay dead to begin with.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Batgirl III »

Doomsday needed to be a one-and-done. After the Cyborg Superman threw him into deep space during Reign of the Supermen and that excellent scene where he was shown to be laughing…

Image

That. That right there. That should have been the final image the readers ever got of Doomsday. Had DC just let that be the end, he’d have been perfect.

The ultimate epic win, the bad guy that killed Superman. The threat that couldn’t be defeated just… moved elsewhere… perpetually left out there, somewhere, like the Sword of Damocles.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Ares »

I think one big mark against Doomsday is that . . . well, he's just kind of random. I think a mindless monster can make for a fine antagonist, but you need to give it some kind of hook. Even the monsters in Godzilla often had a unique origin or purpose.

Doomsday is just some random experiment by some random scientists who was killed by some random alien, put in a box where he randomly landed on Earth, spent centuries recovering and breaking free, and just randomly got out today and started breaking things, attracting the League's attention, and then Superman.

There's no "Doomsday was a spoilsport weapon Brainiac left behind to get revenge on Earth's heroes" or "he was created by Cadmus to be an anti-Superman weapon" or "he's an ancient superweapon that killed the pre-New Gods gods". Even the more recent DC animated movies (which mostly sucked) at least gave Doomsday something by making him a weapon sent by Darkseid to weaken Earth's heroes for an invasion.

Some kind of creative background could have given us something about Doomsday latch onto for future stories, but as it stands, his menace as a Superman killer was all he had.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24693
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Quasimofo wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:19 am Doomsday and Juggernaut are basically the same deal - just an unstoppable powerhouse who punches things. But Jugs has character and personality, and he's managed to stay pretty consistent since the 1960s. He's been relevant for decades, Doomsday was relevant for a couple years. And while Jugs has had his share of Worf moments, he still maintains his cred. They really should have just let Doomsday stay dead to begin with.
Juggernaut is an interesting case in that regard- a lot of it comes down to his cool visual and the fact that he generally maintains credibility within the X-Books themselves... and is given just enough characterization here and there to make something of him. Even as an unstoppable powerhouse he had a sense of humor about things, an oddly jovial personality, a joy of fighting that was infectious, and more, making him something other than "Xavier's Asshole Stepbrother".
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Ken »

Skavenger wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:06 am
Ken wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:31 am At the time... The story was too similar to a story done with Despero* two-and-half years earlier in Justice League America.
In 1986 or so, Despero inexplicably went from a space-chess playing genius to a half-naked juiced up monster.
The only thing I'll give Doomsday is that he was a rather unique villain for Superman, someone who could actually go toe-to-toe with him physically, since most of his villains tend to challenge him mentally.
But that's just it. At that point Superman was in the Justice League, and the Justice League had a villain who "could actually go toe-to-toe with him physically". DC has already sacrificed a perfectly sufficient alien genius would-be despot to replace him with a nearly mindless nigh-Kryptonian class rage monster. Why did they need a second nearly mindless nigh-Kryptonian class rage monster?
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
RainOnTheSun
Posts: 1152
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 7:20 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by RainOnTheSun »

Ares wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:27 am I think one big mark against Doomsday is that . . . well, he's just kind of random. I think a mindless monster can make for a fine antagonist, but you need to give it some kind of hook. Even the monsters in Godzilla often had a unique origin or purpose.

Doomsday is just some random experiment by some random scientists who was killed by some random alien, put in a box where he randomly landed on Earth, spent centuries recovering and breaking free, and just randomly got out today and started breaking things, attracting the League's attention, and then Superman.
Doomsday's randomness definitely changes the tone of the character and the event. I can't decide if it's in a good way or a bad way, but it's like if, instead of Bane breaking Batman, it was some completely unremarkable criminal who got lucky. Most people, even famous or well-loved or tough people, don't die in epic or poetic ways, and neither did Superman. He had another fight, and this time he lost. The Justice League cartoon did its own "death and return of Superman" story in an episode called Hereafter, and Doomsday had nothing to do with it, because Doomsday isn't really important. The important thing is that Superman can die. I half suspect that the later nerfing and degrading of Doomsday as a threat was a refutation of this idea. The idea that the universe can randomly kill anyone, even Superman.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24693
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Grax

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

GRAX
Created By:
Jim Shooter & Wayne Boring
First Appearance: Action Comics #342 (Oct. 1966)
Role: Bronze Age-ish Villain
Group Affiliations: None

-The four-armed, grey skinned alien Grax was a recurring Superman foe... but only for a few years- like most non-Luthor/Brainiac villains, he was discarded and forgotten. He was a thief and conqueror whose M.O. was to steal technology and demand tribute and subservience from entire planets- once, Superman crushed his robot army and stopped his flying saucers who were packing Venusian Radonite. He later stole Brainiac's force-field generator and tossed a bomb at Superman, then trapped Earth in a modifed force-field device so the Man of Steel could watch his adopted planet die. Earth was only saved by the vengeful Brainiac, who attacked Grax.

-Later, Grax teamed up with Lex Luthor, Brainiac and the Marauder, and convinced Superman that using his powers was unleashing phantoms that badly endangered Earth- Superman finally uncovered that it was a hoax, and Grax promptly turned on Luthor, who then teamed up with SUPERMAN, which let them defeat Grax. Grax fled the galaxy and never returned, again a victim of his own treachery. Claiming to be a "20th Level Intellect" (over Brainiac's 12th), he was instead just some douchebag who thought too highly of himself.
User avatar
catsi563
Posts: 4128
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:29 pm
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by catsi563 »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:54 am
Quasimofo wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:19 am Doomsday and Juggernaut are basically the same deal - just an unstoppable powerhouse who punches things. But Jugs has character and personality, and he's managed to stay pretty consistent since the 1960s. He's been relevant for decades, Doomsday was relevant for a couple years. And while Jugs has had his share of Worf moments, he still maintains his cred. They really should have just let Doomsday stay dead to begin with.
Juggernaut is an interesting case in that regard- a lot of it comes down to his cool visual and the fact that he generally maintains credibility within the X-Books themselves... and is given just enough characterization here and there to make something of him. Even as an unstoppable powerhouse he had a sense of humor about things, an oddly jovial personality, a joy of fighting that was infectious, and more, making him something other than "Xavier's Asshole Stepbrother".
Fully agree its one of the more unique traits for Caine that actually showed up in a couple RPGs using the old faserip system we did back in the day, my pc Rolling thunder got into it wih Caine in a village in scotland they ended up fighting did the whole you cant stop me push you to the cliff things where i actually DID stop him and in the end did the whole have a beer thing together
Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

Showdown at the Litterbox

Catsi stories
Jabroniville
Posts: 24693
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Halk Kar

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image

HALK KAR
Created By:
Edmond Hamilton & Al Plastino
First Appearance: Superman #80 (Jan. 1953)
Role: Superman-Like Hero, One-Off Character
Group Affiliations: None

-You have to give it to 1950s DC- they were clearly early adherents of recycling. Halk Kar in particular is a good example, as DC re-told more or less the exact same origin story for the creation of Mon-El eight years later. Granted that's a long time considering their fanbase was considered pretty young. Halk Kar was an alien from Thoron with physiology similar to Kryptonians, said to have visited Krypton shortly before its destruction, befriending Jor-El. When he arrived on Earth years later, he had no memory, and when Superman encountered him carrying a note written by Jor-El, Clark theorized that perhaps this mystery man was his BROTHER! Realizing that Halk Kar's powers were far weaker than his own, Superman decided to cover for him (to spare him from embarrassment) by making it seem like Halk was more powerful than he really was. However, this plan backfired, as Halk began thinking way too highly of himself, taking a superior attitude with Superman and even making time with Lois Lane!

-Finally the two teamed up to fight a criminal, but Halk was electrocuted and this restarted his memory. Halk then gave a proper telling of his origin story- he'd merely crashed on Krypton and had his rocketship repaired by Jor-El, and was sent to Earth while in suspended animation. It was a map of Krypton to Earth that Jor-El had sent him with, which is what Superman saw. Halk Kar bids farewell and we never see him again, Superman being left with the memory of what it's like to have a brother, if only temporarily.

-And of course, this character becomes a bit more notorious because in 1961, Superboy found a crashed rocket from a man named Lar Gand, who himself was left amnesiac after being in suspended animation, and had met Jor-El in the past. With powers identical to Superman's, Lar was thought to be Kryptonian, leading Superboy to think that Gand may be his long-lost brother! Naming him "Mon-El", Superboy revels in having a new brother, but is infuriated when Mon-El proves immune to Kryptonite. Thinking him a fake, he "tested" him with some lead painted green- Mon-El reacts with pain that Superboy thinks is proof of his deception, but soon finds out that the reaction is genuine- Lar Gand is a DAXAMITE, whose people are Kryptonian-like but fatally vulnerable to lead. Mon-El regains his memories but is dying, so a guilt-ridden Superboy places him in the Phantom Zone until a cure can be found- it takes one thousand years, but he is saved by the Legion of Super-Heroes and becomes their key powerhouse. So they more or less copied the "Halk Kar" story directly, but changed the second half.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Batgirl III »

The scene in Excalibur #3 when Cain meets Captain Britain for the first time has always been a favorite of mine:

Image
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
Quasimofo
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:33 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Quasimofo »

I had a lot of fun with Juggernaut when running a Champions RPG set in the Marvel universe way back when. The party had encounters with him off and on in the role of a henchman for Dr. Doom, managing to either trick him or evade him, but never beat him. Finally one of the group, who had teleportation powers, tried something radical - talking to him. He teleported himself and the Juggernaut into the middle of the Sahara desert and just flatly asked why he was working for Doom.

Jugs confessed that Black Tom was sick, and was turning into wood, and that in desperation Juggernaut brought him to Doom, offering to work for him if he made Black Tom better. Doom accepted, and stabilized Black Tom, but wasn't treating him beyond keeping him stable. Effectively holding Black Tom hostage for Juggernaut's servitude. Which Juggernaut knew, but there wasn't anything he could do about it. So the PC asked if the heroes rescued Black Tom and cured him, would Juggernaut stop working for Doom, to which Juggy replied "in a heartbeat, Doom's a douche".

So he teleported them both back to New York, there was an argument over the deal the teleporter had struck, then they started debating how to pull it off. Juggernaut offered "Doom's having the FF over for dinner. He's not gonna do anything, he just wants to mess with 'em. You know, get in their heads about what he's up to when for once he's not up to anything. How about I walk in, punch Ben Grimm in the face, then while they're all messing with me, you kidnap Tom." And the heroes are all sure OK, let's do that. So they get the timing worked out, get halfway through what was essentially a superhero-based dungeon crawl beneath Castle Doom, and one of them finally looks up realizing "Wait, are we following a plan that the JUGGERNAUT came up with?" and another just answers "Shut up, it's working".
Skavenger
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:56 pm
Location: Seattle, Washington, USA

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Maxima! Ultraman! Amazo! The Ravers! Doomsday!)

Post by Skavenger »

Personally, one of my favorite moments for Juggernaut is when Colossus breaks Kitty's heart, so Wolverine and Nightcrawler and take him to a bar, and when it turns out Juggernaut is there, they just let him pound on Colossus for a while to teach him a lesson. And then afterward, Juggernaut seems to respect Colossus for holding up well.
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Halk Kar

Post by Ken »

Ken wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:53 pm
Sidious wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:46 pmWill you be covering Lar Gand/Valor/Mon El?
Just wondering, mainly because it seems every other year there's a new Mon El introduction. The Phantom Zone must be filled with all the duplicates by now.
More importantly, what about Halk-Kar, the proto-Mon-El?
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:53 pm Image
Image
Image

HALK KAR
Created By:
Edmond Hamilton & Al Plastino
First Appearance: Superman #80 (Jan. 1953)
Role: Superman-Like Hero, One-Off Character
Group Affiliations: None

-You have to give it to 1950s DC- they were clearly early adherents of recycling. Halk Kar in particular is a good example, as DC re-told more or less the exact same origin story for the creation of Mon-El eight years later. Granted that's a long time considering their fanbase was considered pretty young. Halk Kar was an alien from Thoron with physiology similar to Kryptonians, said to have visited Krypton shortly before its destruction, befriending Jor-El. When he arrived on Earth years later, he had no memory, and when Superman encountered him carrying a note written by Jor-El, Clark theorized that perhaps this mystery man was his BROTHER! Realizing that Halk Kar's powers were far weaker than his own, Superman decided to cover for him (to spare him from embarrassment) by making it seem like Halk was more powerful than he really was. However, this plan backfired, as Halk began thinking way too highly of himself, taking a superior attitude with Superman and even making time with Lois Lane!

-Finally the two teamed up to fight a criminal, but Halk was electrocuted and this restarted his memory. Halk then gave a proper telling of his origin story- he'd merely crashed on Krypton and had his rocketship repaired by Jor-El, and was sent to Earth while in suspended animation. It was a map of Krypton to Earth that Jor-El had sent him with, which is what Superman saw. Halk Kar bids farewell and we never see him again, Superman being left with the memory of what it's like to have a brother, if only temporarily.

-And of course, this character becomes a bit more notorious because in 1961, Superboy found a crashed rocket from a man named Lar Gand, who himself was left amnesiac after being in suspended animation, and had met Jor-El in the past. With powers identical to Superman's, Lar was thought to be Kryptonian, leading Superboy to think that Gand may be his long-lost brother! Naming him "Mon-El", Superboy revels in having a new brother, but is infuriated when Mon-El proves immune to Kryptonite. Thinking him a fake, he "tested" him with some lead painted green- Mon-El reacts with pain that Superboy thinks is proof of his deception, but soon finds out that the reaction is genuine- Lar Gand is a DAXAMITE, whose people are Kryptonian-like but fatally vulnerable to lead. Mon-El regains his memories but is dying, so a guilt-ridden Superboy places him in the Phantom Zone until a cure can be found- it takes one thousand years, but he is saved by the Legion of Super-Heroes and becomes their key powerhouse. So they more or less copied the "Halk Kar" story directly, but changed the second half.
Back in the day, Mort Weisinger and company were of the opinion that comic book fans rotated out every five years or so. As such they weren't afraid to revisit a story idea on occasion.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Post Reply