Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Jabroniville
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Eris, Goddess of Chaos

Post by Jabroniville »

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Femme Fatale, dark, statuesque, curvaceous, long raven hair...

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Evil, vicious, manipulative, imperious, condescending...

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Barely-concealed rage, utterly-confident, extraordinarily powerful...

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And to top it all off, she's a GIANTESS. A glorious, hundred-foot-tall GIANTESS.

Yup, they somehow managed to make a character that has absolutely every one of my fetishes!

"WHAT? But she's not nine months preg-"

SHUT UP, RANDALL! You're fired! Go back to J-Mart!

---

*Sinbad is trapped in the claws of the dead Cetus, sinking to the ocean floor. A smoky form materializes into a... oh god... a woman of staggering size*

"The day started with SUCH promise... Now, look- my sea monster is dead, and I STILL don't have the Book of Peace. All because of YOU, Sinbad..."
"Uh-huh... And YOU are?"
"ERIS... The Goddess of DISCORD. No doubt you've seen my likeness on the temple walls?" *mimics a wing-handed form*
"I..shhhaa... you know, they DON'T do you justice!"
"Uh-huh. NOW... about my sea monster...?"
"RIGHT, right- listen, I'm sorry about that. I don't suppose a heartfelt APOLOGY would do?"
*mocking laughter* "HEARTFELT?!? From YOU?! You don't HAVE a heart..." *shrinks to human size, moans, and cranks the Femme Fatale Dial to 25 out of 10* "That's what I LIKE about you..."


ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS AND DISCORD
Role:
The Manipulator of Manipulators, The Definition of Chaotic Evil, Lady of Leisure, Mrs. Jabroniville
Played By: Michelle Pfeiffer
PL 13 (346)
STRENGTH
6/12 STAMINA 10/16 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 13 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 6 PRESENCE 5

Skills:
Deception 10 (+15)
Expertise (History) 8 (+13)
Insight 7 (+13)
Intimidation 4 (+9, +16 Giant Size)
Perception 6 (+12)
Persuasion 6 (+11)
Stealth 1 (+4)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Benefit 5 (Goddess), Daze (Deception), Diehard, Fast Grab, Fascination (Deception), Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Languages 2 (Numerous), Power Attack, Startle, Takedown 2, Well-Informed

Powers:
"Immortal Goddess"
Immunity 11 (Aging, Life Support) [11]
Immortality 15 [30]
Regeneration 10 (Feats: Regrows Limbs) [11]
Flight 6 (120 mph) [12]

"Sees All From On-High" Remote Sensing (Vision & Hearing) 21 (Feats: Dimensional 1- Earth, Subtle 2) (66) -- [73]
  • AE: "Wisps From Place To Place" Teleport 15 (Feats: Change Direction & Velocity) (Extras: Easy, Accurate) (62)
  • AE: "Blows Air-Bubble" Immunity 3 (Drowning, Pressure & Suffocation) (Extras: Affects Others Only +0, Area- 30ft. Burst) (6)
  • AE: Movement 1 (Dimensional Travel- Earth & Spacey-Realm) (2)
  • AE: "Mass of Shadows" Concealment (Visuals) 2 (Flaws: Partial) (2)
  • AE: "Shows the Way To Tartarus" Illusion (Visuals) 4 (8)
  • AE: "I LOVE Playing Pretend..." Morph 4 (Anything) (20)
  • AE: "Control The Air, Water & Sand" Move Object 10 (Extras: Damaging) (30)
"Enough TALKING!... Time For Some Screaming...!" Environment 10 (Extreme Cold 2, Impede Movement 1) (Feats: Dimensional) [31]

"Gloriously-Resplendent Size"
Growth 6 (Str & Sta +6, +6 Mass, +3 Intimidation, -3 Dodge/Parry, +1 Speed, -3 Stealth) -- (105 feet) [12]
Growth +9 (+15 Mass, +7 Intimidation, +1 Speed, -15 Stealth) -- (105 feet) (Flaws: Limited to Non-STR & STA Growths) [9]

Offense:
Unarmed +13 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Giant Size +13 (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +13 (DC 23), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +10, Fortitude +10, Will +8
"Giant Size" Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +16, Fortitude +16, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation ("GLORIOUS Chaos...")- Eris seeks to unravel the entire world, sending people's lives descending into chaos. When Sinbad & Marina see Tartarus, they find a desolate world full of corpses, sand and monsters. "LIKE it? I'm going to do the whole WORLD this way..." Her ultimate plan is to have Proteus killed thanks to Sinbad's selfish (sorta) decision to not be executed, thus sending Syracuse into rudderless chaos.
Motivation ("Enough TALKING... Time for some SCREAMING...!")- Eris could probably just KILL Proteus and get her way, but where's the fun in THAT? She likes to do things via manipulation and deceit, not direct action. She's even seen being bored by Character Development & Expository Dialogue, instead summoning a huge monster.
Responsibility ("When a Goddess Gives Her Word... She Is Bound For All Eternity...")- A Goddess can NOT go back on her word, no matter how angry she is.
Responsibility ("Your heart is as BLACK as mine...")- Eris cannot comprehend good people, and does not think that anyone can change- especially black-hearted pirates...

Total: Abilities: 106 / Skills: 42--21 / Advantages: 19 / Powers: 188 / Defenses: 12 (346)

Eris- The Ultimate Villainess:
-For all the issues with the main characters, the absolutely knocked it out of the park with Eris, Goddess of Chaos. She's basically everything that makes a villain great, and is by FAR the most-memorable part of the picture. Men love her, and women want to BE her (the comments on YouTube and such are actually largely-female, cheering on how great she looks and how rad she is). It's all in the hair- a giant flowing mane of raven tresses. It's a nightmare for animators (it took a long time, and required CGI- the director jokes that she looked ridiculous in the animatics because she "looked like she had a shower cap on", despite trying to reflect all that power), but it's magnificent in animation.

-I can't say enough about how good Michelle Pfeiffer was in this role, too. While you've got Brad Pitt all "Haw, Voice Acting is super-awesome, because you only have to show up for a couple of hours, get to do it at your own pace, and you don't have to PHYSICALLY act!" (he more or less says this on the Special Features of the DVD), there's stuff out there about how much trouble Michelle had with the role and how she phoned Producer Jeffrey Katzenberg and said "you can fire me if you want to" before she FINALLY got it (twirling a scarf around her in the recording booth was the "trick" to get her in character). So while the A-List Actors are half-assing "Some Pirate Movie" or something, Pfeiffer pulls off a great, complicated role- Eris has to be flirtatious, manipulative, confident and cruel, but has to remain in power, so she restrains her anger to appear more unflappable. I was actually stunned by how good she was- I only remember her from her career peak with Batman Returns/Dangerous Minds, and she disappeared from the mainstream soon afterwards. But I needn't have been so surprised- she's actually a THREE-TIME OSCAR NOMINEE, it turns out, so she's got the credentials. But really, you can FEEL the power in her voice- and when she laughs, she doesn't do a Disney Villain Cackle, you can actually hear the laugh in her voice as she talks (like when she mocks Sinbad for saying "heartfelt").

The Complexity of Eris:
-There's a good bit in the Commentary about how their initial Eris had stuff like "DON'T INTERRUPT ME!" as part of her dialogue, but they realized that to lash out with such anger actually caused her to GIVE UP some of her power! It reminds me of Jake "The Snake" Roberts' discussions about his wrestling interview style, and how he almost NEVER raised his voice or screamed at his opponents (like most wrestlers do). When asked why, he just calmly said "because a man of great power... does not have to shout." Compare Eris to Disney's Hades- Hades is a fun role, but his endless bickering, biting and freaking the F out actually DIMINISHES him as a threat, not boosts him (you always know that Herc would trounce him in a fight, for example). Great anger makes villains comical figures. Meanwhile, Eris maintains her composure until the very end of the picture, maintaining her threatening aura throughout- she has a lot in common with Maleficent and The Evil Queen in that regard. She FEELS tremendous anger, but constantly (at times desperately) gives off the sense of "LOL none of this bothers me" even she she's furious, so you get all these seething takes and bundled up energy waiting to explode (like when she mutters "D-don't play COY with me!" while clattering her nails on the gallows when Sinbad frustrates her).

-They go all-out with the character animation, fluidity, and set-pieces with Eris, too. Instead of WALKING like some common peon, she "flows" from place to place ("because why would you WALK if you could do THAT?" sez the commentary), effectively teleporting, even if it means moving three feet, or just changing position. She acts as a living shadow in one scene, creates a "Sinbad Puppet", then merges into it to control the thing and imitate the pirate. She appears before Sinbad, UNDERWATER, at a hundred feet tall, then blows an air bubble to keep him alive while she lectures him. She's often seen stalking the ENTIRE PLANET, as if she's literally larger than the Earth itself (this may not even be metaphorical- she physically drops Cetus into the ocean from on high, and he appears falling from the sky and into the ocean... however, it could just be an application of being within Tartarus, as Sinbad & Marina cross into the same world, past several constellations, when they fall in), and in a GLORIOUS, but way-too-short scene, is seen bathing IN A CLUSTER OF STARS while she summons the Roc ("Enough TALKING... *girlish giddiness* time for some screaming!"). And that scene where she rises from the ocean, overlooks a pier dozens of feet off the ground, with an angry look on her face? GAAHHHHHH....

Eris in Whole:
-Eris is the only villain, and the only GOD in the picture (early development included Janus as a "Rival God" who debated with her, but they felt again that this robbed her of power and agency in the overall plot- the movie's climax works best when it's SINBAD vs. ERIS, not SINBAD & JANUS debating Eris). She manipulates Sinbad and the people of Syracuse, setting up a situation where the heir to the throne will die, thus causing the city to fall into chaos (and she is literally the GODDESS OF CHAOS. Chaotic Evil is basically her entire schtick- not the raving lunatics that most people imagine that Alignment to be- but a careful practitioner). Like Maleficent, her screentime is limited, but focused- she throws trouble in at every step of the way- sending Cetus, the Sirens and the Roc, then presenting Sinbad with one final question- if he fails to get the book, will he return and take his execution like a man, or will he abandon Proteus to his probably death?

-Only at the end of the picture does she lose her cool- terrifying everyone in Syracuse by rising from the harbor at a hundred-plus feet tall and in a deadly rage (!!!!!-- MARRY MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!), trying one last shot at scaring off our hero. And when he uses Eris' word against her (she's gotta follow the rules of the deal, after all...), she desperately tries to strike him, fails due to being bound by her oath (physically shown by her "crossing" her chest with light energy), rolls her eyes, and hands the Book back. But makes sure to maintain her composure on the way out, having just embarrassed herself by proving that a mortal could break her facade of uncaring.
-So yeah, I like Eris. Just wanted to make that clear.

The Might of Eris:
-Eris is supremely powerful, especially in this universe- it's quite clear she could have destroyed all the heroes in a moment if she so chose (she even saves Sinbad's life in the opening). She's only bound by her sworn oath (which prevents her from striking, or even harming, Sinbad when he fulfills his part of their bargain), otherwise she could probably kill thousands of people effortlessly.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Snapper Carr! Ultra! Luke Sullivan! Sinbad!)

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:22 pm Funny, every time I think about Sinbad, I remember how Ares was annoyed that Proteus more or less gets unfairly left alone at the end, despite being the better person from the very beginning! I will say that the movie was at least pretty good in giving us a variety of threats, from a sea monster to a giant bird to creepy seductresses that drowned people. It's very "Video Game"-y in that sense, as it's a series of Stage Bosses.
I actually like the movie, and I do appreciate that while Sinbad is the roguish hero that gets the girl, Proteus is never made to look bad to make Sinbad look good. Proteus is able to take on Sinbad's entire crew, and is at least as good as Sinbad is as a fighter, if not better. He's not naive, as he knows Sinbad is capable of theft, but he sees that his friend isn't lying to him. He places immense trust in his friend, and that trust is rewarded in the end.

While I would have appreciated that he get the girl in the end, I do get what the movie was trying for. Marina was there out of a sense of duty. Sinbad gave Marina the kind of freedom she wanted, the open sea, and she only really started liking him once he showed the qualities that made him and Proteus such good friends. In the end, they were just better fits for each other.

Proteus is a good man, will be a good ruler, and no doubt find himself a good local girl at some point.

What's interesting is that Proteus is the person Eris considers the biggest threat in the film. Everything she did was to kill Proteus because he was apparently a paragon that could keep order in the land, book or no book. With him gone and no Book of Peace, Eris was certain the land would fall to chaos.

In Eris' mind, Proteus was the big threat and Sinbad was the chump she was using to get her way. And the only reason she didn't win was because Sinbad's interactions with Proteus and Marina brought out his better qualities again.

In some ways, Sinbad and Proteus have a very "Harry Dresden" and "Michael Carpenter" vibe, and a buddy cop movie with the two could be fun.

Overall, the film isn't perfect, but it's a lot of fun. I love swashbuckling films, and I just binged the three Harryhausen Sinbad movies not that long ago. So for an animated swashbuckling adventure, it definitely wasn't bad.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Luke! Sinbad! Cetus! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS!)

Post by Ares »

I will say that one thing they should have done is come up with a better reason for how Eris could just steal the Book of Peace. It should have been one of those things that can repel even her, and she would have had to work harder to get it and frame Sinbad. Something like bribing a guard to close the book, and once it was closed she could move in to take it, and the guard could claim Sinbad stole it. Something to make it clear Eris couldn't just show up next week and steal the book again.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Eris, Goddess of Chaos

Post by Sidious »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:26 pm "WHAT? But she's not nine months preg-"

SHUT UP, RANDALL! You're fired! Go back to J-Mart!
The response should be "Give me some Time!"
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Luke! Sinbad! Cetus! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS!)

Post by Ken »

Eris, goddess of Discord?

How many other apps have their own deity?
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Luke! Sinbad! Cetus! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS!)

Post by Ares »

Based on the people there, you'd swear Eris was the goddess of Twitter.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Jabroniville
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Watchmen

Post by Jabroniville »

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"Who Watches The Watchmen?"

WATCHMEN:
-Woof. Imagine trying to sum THIS one up. Yep- I'm finally getting to Watchmen. Probably the most respected superhero comic of all time, and one that changed the entire industry more than maybe anything else. And of course all the following writers and artists took all the wrong lessons from it, lol.

But seriously, nobody had every taken superhero stuff and made it MATURE like this. Actually delved into the real changes superheroes being around would make in the real world in a very sincere, detailed, realistic manner. Especially when one character turns out to have vast superpowers, thus altering global politics forever. It's rooted deeply in the Cold War, which was an obsession in the 1980s, and goes into the mindset of superheroes as well- what would make someone throw on a costume and beat the shit out of criminals? Some just want to help. Some are inspired by others and want to follow in their footsteps (in ways both healthy and unhealthy). Others are just morally righteous, while also being fantastically crazy. It's some fascinating stuff and everyone has their own deal going on, though the book seems to suggest that nearly everyone who'd get into this kind of life is incredibly unhinged (more on that later). The book also uses dialogue that's more "real" in the sense that people use the language of adults- swearing and talking about sex frankly, and you see nudity and the like- during some anti-vigilante riots, a furious woman screams "My son is a police officer, you FAGGOTS!" to Nite Owl and the gang. Ya didn't hear THAT in the Marvel Universe! Well, unless Kitty Pryde was talking, but you know what I mean.

Of all the characters, probably none is more iconic that Rorschach, the insane, criminal-torturing loon who was broken by a particularly horrible case and now breaks fingers to get information out of people. A dark parody of Steve Ditko's morally-righteous criminal-killing vigilantes, he's left the biggest mark on the rest of comics, even though Watchmen makes it clear he's a pitiful, brain-addled character and not THAT sympathetic- Moore's fault for fleshing him out and making his end a sad one, I guess.

The book is absolutely literary and very imaginative. The existence of the super-powered Dr. Manhattan and the genius of Ozymandias alters the entire course of history, with genetic engineering (a turky with four drumsticks is seen in the first issue), advances in technology (electric cars are commonplace and charging stations are along all the streets in Manhattan), and even cultural changes (homosexual couples are seen in the background with nobody commenting). It's well-thought-out, well-reasoned and involves plans upon plans by the various characters, most of whom are seen to be very capable. The fear of the Cold War reads incredibly strongly throughout, helping explain the actions of Ozymandias. What looks at first like a small conspiracy of murder expands further and further.

There's this great bit where a kid is reading ("Byrne-Stealing") a pirate-themed comic over the course of the story, and it ends up with symbolism to the main plot- the man survives a pirate assault, but engages in increasingly-horrifying ways to life through his ordeal (building a raft out of the floating corpses of his shipmates, then a shark he's killed) until he loses his mind and attacks an "interloper" into his home, who turns out to be his own wife. Realizing he's become a monster in his path to survival, he flees his home and joins the pirates, feeling a kinship only with them- meanwhile, Ozymandias has engaged in horrible actions and taken all of the evil and guilt upon himself in order to save the world.

The dialogue is AMAZING. Rorschach gets the lion's share of the great lines (part of why he's so popular), with not only his crazy rants, but his bad-ass "I'm not stuck in here with YOU- You're all stuck in here with ME!" being a stand-out, as is the terrific line "Don't worry- won't insult legendary underworld solidarity by suggesting you surrender information without torture". Much of the cast speaks like normal people, but Dr. Manhattan & Ozymandias are aloof and "above" everything, Laurie is almost constantly upset, Dan is weak-willed and whiny, and Rorschach has this inhuman dialogue style that comes off as unsettling because he contracts his sentences too much ("No need" he responds, when Dan asks if he wants to heat up some beans, "Fine like this").

The characters have depth for days, and have tons of hang-ups. Dan "Nite Owl" Drieberg is a chubby, retired, impotent man, but suddenly becomes a "Full Man" in his superheroic guise, only feeling whole in his masked identity. Laurie, the Silk Spectre, only engaged in vigilantism because her fame-obsessed mother forced her into it, clearly resenting her for it, yet she comes out of retirement and continues on. Dr. Manhattan is so powerful and omniscient he's lost sight of his own humanity, yet is fascinated by the humanity of others- his powers are seen as both incredible and horrifying (Laurie FREAKS when he makes "clones" of himself in bed so he can engage in scientific experiments in another room, and Jon can't figure out why; in another scene, people lose it when he simply teleports into a TV studio with no warning). Ozymandias is smart and self-assured; almost unemotive or simply amused by the problems of lesser people, but occasionally lets that slide. The Comedian, a central character seen only in flashback, is both amoral (to the point of being a sociopath) and incredibly insightful, feeling the world is burning and he'll just get what he can, but has moments of self-pity and sorrow all the same.

The book also does some things that are only possible in comics- one issue is a complete mirror image- each panel corresponds in color scheme to a panel on the opposite side of the issue until a central page mirrors itself. Various things are timed and paced to only be possible in the medium of comics, where one panel follows another (the bit where Rorschach leaves a note for Moloch in his refrigerator, saying "Behind You", then the immediate panel is the front of Moloch's face as he peers behind him to find Rorschach standing silently behind him- you couldn't replicate this in motion).

It's also quite funny- Rorshach of all people gets some good lines on the dwarf gang-boss Big Figure, simply going "Tall order" to one of his suggestions. His taunts to the criminals come off as hilarious, too. Dan & Laurie have a great bit talking about some masochist criminal who got off on being beaten up ("I was fighting him and I hear this heavy breathing...") before Laurie asks whatever happened to that guy. "Oh, he tried it with Rorschach and Rorschach threw him down an elevator shaft", causing Laurie to burst out laughing, while admitting that's not funny and it's horrible to laugh at it.

The book is flat-out political in ways a lot of comics were hiding from- it seems clear that Moore is more liberal than conservative, but he still portrays the liberal newsletter guy as a total douchebag who's more impressed that Ozymandias makes a "coke joke" and is easily wowed by him. Of course, the guy writing the CONSERVATIVE newspaper is a hilariously-virulent racist and asshole who abuses his one subordinate ("I swear to god, Seymour... three million New Yorkers died and you weren't one of them"), puts a racist cartoon in his paper, and more. Rorschach, the crazy guy, insults "liberals" frequently while lionizing the Comedian, who the genius Ozymandias dismisses as "practically a NAZI" (there's a funny bit following where Rorschach talks up the Comedian's heroism and not whoring himself out like Ozy does and adds "If that makes him a Nazi, you might as well call me a Nazi, too" and Veidt sums it all up with an incredibly-dismissive, amused "Hm" while looking at his reflection).

And then THAT ENDING. Ozymandias finally reveals everything, reveals WHY the Comedian had to die (he came across Adrian's island of exiled artists, creating a nightmare creature whose death-throes will kill millions), and that he's slaughtered millions for the sake of global peace between the world powers. "I'm not some republic serial villain, Dan. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest possibility of you changing its outcome? I did it twenty-five minutes ago". That was BRILLIANT- Moore completely turning what was even then a cliche on its head, and years before the constant jokes about "Villainous Monologuing" and "What *I* Would Do If I Were a Super-Villain". The heroes are completely stunned and even worse, helpless. Only Rorschach takes a moral stand, and that doesn't last long. Ozymandias weeps as he realizes he was successful- all his planning worked! And yet, at the very end, Dr. Manhattan warns him "nothing EVER ends, Adrian..." and refuses to explain his answer, and the young worker at the Conservative-leaning New Frontiersman has to fill pages with whatever he can find, and comes across Rorschach's tattered journal, explaining their entire story...

Visual Motifs:
-Few comics have ever shown as much symbolism as Watchmen, though it's up in the air as to what a lot of it means. The blood-spot over the eye of the Comedian's badge is a recurring element- sharp-eyed readers will see not only that image repeated, but stains over Nite Owl's ship, a face-shaped electrical socket, the New Frontiersman kid's smiley-face shirt, and more. The distinctive splatter is also reflected in the shape of the two Bernies' bodies at the moment of arrival of Veidt's "alien", and the final moments of the Antarctic dome at Ozymandias's Karnak base- the last bit visible of the beautiful biodome before the snow takes it is there. It can be extrapolated that it symbolizes seemingly-perfect things being sullied- the smiley-face being covered in blood most obivously, but that last bit of beauty being snuffed out at Karnak, too.

Clocks and watches are often seen throughout, most directly refering to the "Doomsday Clock", which scholars would say indicated how close the world is to nuclear armageddon. It rapidly approaches higher levels as the story goes on, until Veidt's creature manifests itself in New York. The smiley-face stain may also reflect this, as the angled stain is around where eleven to midnight (the most dangerous tier) lies.

Watchmen's Origins & After-Effects:
-Watchmen has its origins in Alan Moore's concepts for when DC bought the rights to the Charlton Comics characters- Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Nightshade, Peacemaker and more. However, his ideas submitted to DC were as character-breaking as they were incredible. Nowadays he'd just be allowed to do it and permanently-alter many of those characters forever, but back in the '80s someone was like "Hey, what about the future?" and wisely asked Moore to just create his OWN version of these characters for his 12-part mega-series, so DC could use the regular Charlton guys later. It says something that even ridiculous-looking doofuses like Peacemaker and forgotten worthless ones like Nightshade and Peter Cannon were afforded such respect.

Naturally, comic book writers took the worst lessons from this and The Dark Knight Returns (Frank Miller's violent take on an aged future Batman). Both comics hit HUGE and were uniquely "adult" in that sex, violence and brutality were on full display, but like... they were also WELL-WRITTEN. There's great dialogue in both, and you can defend them both artistically, even if bits haven't aged well. But of course a bunch of 20-year old comic creators were like "WOW, they have tits and swears and blood! I want tits and swears and blood, too!". You can largely thank these two books for the increasingly-aggressive slide of comics from the 1980s to the "Iron Age", with blood & violence now at the forefront (Marvel & DC managed to keep nudity mostly out of their mainstream stuff)- heroes got more and more vicious, ax-crazy vigilantes beyond even Rorschach not only became common but actually DEFENDED in-universe, and more. Moore seemed quite aware that most of his characters’ f*ck-ups were f*ck-ups, as the world called them out on it...

The Flaws in the Story:
-Watchmen has very few flaws as a story. If it does have some, it's in things that make it rather dated- something written in 1985 will no doubt have things that would bother a 2022 audience. I remember a friend pointing out that Laurie, the only female superhero active, is RIDICULOUSLY whiny and crabby the entire time, and also has no real importance to the heroes' quest. Her main importance is as someone Jon finds fascinating.

The whole "Superheroes are Nuts" thing gets a bit tricky, especially since Moore absolutely attaches sexual things with the group as well, especially homosexuality. Hooded Justice is implied to be a sexual sadist, Mothman becomes a mentally-addled alcoholic who becomes committed, Rorschach is seen as uncomfortable with all manner of sex ENTIRELY thanks to his mother's past as a prostitute, and three Golden Age heroes are made to be homosexuals- Moore doesn't seem unsympathetic to gay people (the man was in a polygamous relationship with two women, after all), but tying all these sexually-bizarre people in with gays strikes me as a perhaps nasty association.

Probably the most poorly-aging part of the whole story is the whole "Comedian Tries to Rape Sally Jupiter" story-arc, which not only involves Sally forgiving her rapist and him seeming a bit sympathetic in the long run, but making said forgiveness a MAJOR PLOT POINT, as she later has a real sexual relationship with him and seems to fall in love with Eddie. Laurie herself, hating Eddie for his part in it, also ends up mimicking him in the end.

The "Prequels":
-So quite a few years back, DC actually got the rights to Watchmen from Dave Gibbons (horrifying Moore, who found this unforgivable) and produced PREQUELS, written by a bunch of superstar creators. Some of them were actually quite good (the Silk Spectre one by Jimmy Palmiotti/Amanda Connor had a lot of their trademark wit and Connor's book-selling art), others elaborated upon characters who had only mini-cameos (Dollar Bill had a decent one), and others were crap. Notably, J.M. Straczinski of all people buggers up the fact that Rorschach didn't have his "Crazy Dialogue" until AFTER the murder of the little girl, not before. That's a major thing to miss, and impossible to forgive when Watchmen only has twelve issues to read through!

Ultimately, though, the "Watchmenverse" is hardly stronger for having had those prequels. Then of course DC decided to merge that universe with their own, trying to squeeze blood from a stone.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Luke! Sinbad! Cetus! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS!)

Post by Ares »

A big problem I have with Watchmen is the nihilistic element to it. I mentioned this over in the "most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator" threat, but a huge part of the story is humanity's inherit self-destructive nature, and while we do get some positive statements such as each person being a miracle, no one ever really stands up to the Comedian or Adrian when they go on and on about how humanity is so terrible. In almost any other story story, Dan would have been the one to talk back and offer counter arguments to all the BS they were slinging, but Moore had to make the Ted Kord analogy into someone relatively spineless.

We get exactly one scene of people trying to be decent to each other right before the explosion goes off, and that's just meant to sell the tragedy of the situation. "Too little, too late".

For extra annoyance, Adrian's act is treated like some necessary tragedy, when it's really a man feeding his own ego. Adrian had access to Dr. Manhattan, a genius intellect, time and resources to BURN, could easily get in touch with Dan and the other greatest minds on the planet, and the best he could come up with was getting rid of John and faking an alien invasion.

There had to have been better methods. Hell, John can make an unknown number of copies of himself. With all of that power, resource and political pull, Adrian could almost certainly have worked on a quieter plan that would have maybe taken longer, and maybe wouldn't have let him "win" over the rest of the world, because he would have had to work with other people openly and as equals to make it happen.

If Watchmen is a tragedy, it's because Adrian isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is, and he almost certainly made a bad situation worse. It relies so much on the worst aspects of humanity winning out to where it's just mired in misery, to the point I can't really take it seriously at times.

And Moore even makes it clear that Adrian's peace won't last, because of John's cryptic comment and Rorschach journal getting published at the end. The whole story is basically a shaggy dog story that relies on the worst possible presentation of humanity, where even the heroes are given every weird fetish flaw Moore could conceive of. And Moore's fetishes are on full display, things we'd seen a few years earlier in Miracle Man, and we'd see more of in his proposed "Last DCU Story". And as Davies mentioned, the idea of Nixon getting elected that many times was less plausible than a guy with superpowers showing up.

As a constructed story, Watchmen is a masterpiece in terms of set up and pay off, it has great dialogue, it really works to get into it's characters heads, it deconstructed a genre that had very little deconstruction by that point, etc. From a purely technical level, it's fantastic.

I just hate pretty much everything it tries to say, as it feels like some edgy 15 year old's dark fantasy being translated to the page by some master class writer.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Sinbad! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS! Watchmen!)

Post by catsi563 »

Well to be fair he didnt have a lot of time it's pretty explicitly stated in the books that thanks to nixons stupdity and soviet intractability that the world is on the brink of all out nuclear war even worse than anything seen in the cold war. otherwise id agree Veidt could have solved the worlds issues in any number of fashions given time and Dr Manhattans aid
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Sinbad! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS! Watchmen!)

Post by Davies »

catsi563 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:00 pm Well to be fair he didnt have a lot of time
He explicitly states that he started his plans right after the Crimebusters meeting (1966) and they paid off in 1985. Nineteen years.

"You could have saved the world years ago if it mattered to you".

Edit: And with regards to Nixon -- Veidt starts working this out two years before he's elected, and nine years before the abolishment of the 22nd Amendment. If he believes this to be a problem for his plans, why doesn't he apply his brainpower and resources towards preventing that? Is it because it can't be prevented? Or is it because he finds him useful?

Edit2: On reflection, I'd prefer to save this debate until after Jab posts his Ozymandius profile, because I have an essay's worth of things to say.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Sinbad! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS! Watchmen!)

Post by Shock »

I think Watchmen was a really good book that too many people took the wrong lessons from.

However, (I may be in the minority here) I think the entire Black Freighter bit was a complete waste of paper.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Sinbad! Roc! ERIS, GODDESS OF CHAOS! Watchmen!)

Post by Orbiter »

Complete waste of paper? No. Expanded way past the point the narrative as a whole required? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
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Watchmen PLs

Post by Jabroniville »

The Power Levels of Watchmen:
-Watchmen is a far more "realistic" look at superheroes than many other things- there are only a handful of completely impossible things in the book, mostly based around Ozymandias's inventions and Dr. Manhattan. Nobody but those two do anything that's physically impossible, and they're like virtual gods in the non-powered setting because of it. Rorschach himself is easily captured despite putting up a hell of a fight when regular riot cops trap him in a building, and when two pro heroes, Nite Owl & Rorschach, see a genetically-enhanced lynx (no larger than a person), both are like "oh shit" and don't make a move because they know they'd be in for it.

That said, the superheroes are still quite potent- retired, out of shape Dan & Laurie absolutely destroy a gang of "Knot-Tops" that come to attack them- they're exhausted, but even unarmed they beat the living hell out of them while taking no damage themselves. When the Comedian is killed, Rorschach derides Dan for suggesting a burglar might have broken in and done it- "An ordinary burglar? Kill the Comedian? Ridiculous." Superheroes seem to be PL 6-7, but in a world where a basic criminal or cop is PL 4-5 and has a gun that could easily kill them. So they have a leg up over normal people, but they're still quite vulnerable.
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Dollar Bill

Post by Jabroniville »

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DOLLAR BILL (Bill Brady)
Created By:
Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons
First Appearance: Watchmen #1 (Sept. 1986)
Role: Golden Age Hero, Tragic Hero
Group Affiliations: The Minutemen
PL 5 (63)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Acrobatics 2 (+6)
Athletics 4 (+6)
Deception 4 (+5)
Expertise (Streetwise) 4 (+5)
Insight 2 (+5)
Intimidation 2 (+3)
Perception 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Unarmed)

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +6 (DC 16), Toughness +4, Fortitude +5, Will +5

Complications:
Motivation (A Living)- Dollar Bill was a struggling actor, failing to get by; the bank hiring him on keeps him afloat.
Secret (Mostly Symbolic)- Dollar Bill is mostly a creation of advertising, though Bill himself works hard to make himself useful.
Disabled (Cape)- Dollar Bill's costume is mandated by his bosses- it contains a long cape that's fairly easy to grab... or get caught in things.

Total: Abilities: 46 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 2 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 5 (63)

-Dollar Bill was part of the backstory of Watchmen- one of the many sad stories that afflicted the original "Minutemen"- a coalition of the Golden Age heroes of that universe. An athlete and would-be actor, "Dollar Bill" was actually used by his bosses to capitalize on the superhero craze of the 1940s- a bank wanted to have an "in-house superhero" to advertise themselves and boast that "your money is safe with US!", but he was apparently a really nice dude, said by the Golden Age Nite Owl to be one of the kindest men he'd ever met. Tragically, he was killed when his cape (mandated by the bank) got stuck in a revolving door, and he was shot in the head by a bankrobber in 1947. This is a sign both of the tragedy of the old heroes (many of whom met bad ends), and a showing of realism in their universe- most American comics had simply accepted all of the superheroic accoutrements, but Watchmen pointed out, pre-Edna Mode, that a cape on a non-powered human could easily get them killed. Nite Owl himself detailed in Under the Hood how he dropped his string mask for one held on by spirit gum after a knife-wielding drunk pulled it down and nearly blinded him.

-The "prequels" to Watchmen actually gave Dollar Bill a focus issue, giving him dialogue (I don't even recall him saying anything in Watchmen- he's honestly the least-important superhero in the whole thing)- he was a failed actor, said to have the looks but be an embarrassment when he did a song & dance for a casting director. He took on the "Dollar Bill" role because it just needed the look and athleticism, and found himself recruited to the Minutemen- he was happy, but had to be honest, telling Sally Jupiter & Nite Owl he was "Just an actor" and that he couldn't really DO anything. They appreciated his honesty, pointing out that they just needed a well-known, popular guy for their OWN image, and everyone happily went on with it, all being square. But Dollar Bill later proved himself on a few cases, and was genuinely helpful and heroic, making his death all the more poignant.

-Dollar Bill is a PL 4 brawler with PL 5 defenses- most bank robbers could be assumed to be PL 3-4 in this world, meaning it'd actually be pretty tough for him to take them on solo, but it could be done.
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Mothman

Post by Jabroniville »

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MOTHMAN (Byron Lewis)
Created By:
Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons
First Appearance: Watchmen #1 (Sept. 1986)
Role: Golden Age Hero, Tragic Hero
Group Affiliations: The Minutemen
PL 6 (78)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Acrobatics 2 (+6)
Athletics 6 (+8)
Deception 3 (+4)
Expertise (Streetwise) 1 (+5)
Insight 2 (+4)
Perception 2 (+4)
Technology 4 (+8)

Advantages:
Evasion, Move-By Action, Ranged Attack 2

Powers:
"Mothman Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [4]
Flight 4 (30 mph) (Flaws: Winged) (4)
Protection 1 (1)
-- (5 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +3 (+4 Costume), Fortitude +5, Will +4

Complications:
Addiction (Alcohol, Liniment)- Byron self-medicates to take care of the pain from his career- this has left him quite addicted, and will wreak havoc on his psyche.

Total: Abilities: 52 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 4 / Defenses: 8 (78)

-The most fantastical of the Minutemen, Mothman was a wealthy aeronautics engineer who constructed himself a suit that allowed him to FLY. However, he was one of the least-used Minutemen in the story- more of a "sad end" type that showed the kinds of people who ended up in this kind of life. Pressure from the House of Un-American Committee had done a number on him, as he'd made many left-wing friends from his student days. Many of the Minutemen had turned out to be huge messes, and Mothman was one of the few who was still alive- he was a brain-addled, shaky alcoholic who by the 1980s had been confined to a mental institution- a young Laurie had been notably creeped out just from being around the man.

-Mothman is a much smarter hero than the other Golden Agers, but still quite a basic PL 5, PL 5.5 defensively with his costume.
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