Jab's Rifts Builds (Rifts- A Final Summation!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Yama! Ravana! Kumbakarna! Nagas!)

Post by Jabroniville »

kenmadragon wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:52 am [
He still got a bunch of the little details wrong, or just flat-out changed some of them. Like, sure, they're fitting their mythological powers of "holy shit, that guy did what? Why the hell are these dudes throwing around planet-busting spells and weapons like they're party favors?!?!" but the relationships between them seem a bit off: Like, for example, Parvati was the one who chased after Shiva, and is literally the goddess of marital bliss and fidelity because of that. Her beginning to fall in love with Agni doesn't really track with the myths, given how obsessed Parvati was with Shiva. Heck, Kali isn't also just some spawn of Parvati's, but literally just Parvati flying into a berserk rage and incarnating herself as righteous fury and bloodthirsty violence, drawing on the fact that she's basically Shiva's wife and thus also a Goddess of Destruction... when she chooses to be, because she's otherwise perfectly happy being a peaceful homemaker and devoted wife whose presence effectively enhanced Shiva's ability to do his job as a God of Time and Destruction. The idea that Parvati and Shiva have a love/hate relationship is kinda ridiculous, considering how their most significant tiff pretty much involved Shiva's inability to knock when entering the bathrooms in his own house (which resulted in Ganesha's origin story).

Similarly Ravana doesn't hate all the Indian Gods - he just hates the Devas because the Devas tend to be assholes to Rakshasas. But, Ravana is otherwise one of the biggest devotees of Shiva - this is a major deal: Ravana got his sword "Chandrahas/Laughing-Moon" from Shiva as a gift after he earned redemption when Shiva humbled him for his arrogance and converted Ravana into his devotee - and even got blessings and spell-knowledge from Brahma once. I doubt any game books ever bothered to give him skill in music, do they? The guy's famous as a musician too, for a demon-lord, as he is legendarily skilled at singing and in playing the veena (it was part of how he earned his redemption and Shiva's sword, you know).

Also, Skanda is a spear-wielder in Hindu mythology. The sword-wielding is from the Buddhist take on him. He also rides a peacock and is otherwise quite awesome as a philosopher-warrior, poet-saint and all-round demon slayer. Not sure about the whole "can't use magic" thing, but him being a martial-arts badass tracks. Him being obsessed with combat is a bit weird, though... like mentioned, he's famous as a muse for poets and a reknowned philosopher (though his brother, Ganesha, has him beat on that front in terms of scholarly legend).

And like you mentioned, the write-up they gave for Saraswati just does not track with the mythology as far as I can tell...

That's about it off the top of my head, to be honest. I'd need to do a deep-dive later, but yeah... Carella did his best to make them super-powerful... but screwed up a bunch on the details, damn it!
Good to see you again, Kenma! I’m glad you could provide more insight- even checking Wikipedia was providing difficult for me to check stuff.

Carella admits he changed some things to meet the story he wanted to tell, and that players could do whatever with them, but it’s still funny. Some characters he just kinda makes from whole cloth. Like, you’d figure someone who even KNOWS Parvati, much less is familiar with Kali being an aspect of her, would also know what she’s actually supposed to be like.

Unless he was hoping nobody would check.
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Yama! Ravana! Kumbakarna! Nagas!)

Post by catsi563 »

kenmadragon wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:52 am
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:23 am And with that, the Hindu Pantheon is done! Naturally many characters were changed (Some, big-time), but there's an odd sense here that Carella is a MUCH bigger fan of the Indian Gods than the others, or at least wanted to appease anyone who was offended by going "SEE?!? I made them the STRONGEST ones!".
He still got a bunch of the little details wrong, or just flat-out changed some of them. Like, sure, they're fitting their mythological powers of "holy shit, that guy did what? Why the hell are these dudes throwing around planet-busting spells and weapons like they're party favors?!?!" but the relationships between them seem a bit off: Like, for example, Parvati was the one who chased after Shiva, and is literally the goddess of marital bliss and fidelity because of that. Her beginning to fall in love with Agni doesn't really track with the myths, given how obsessed Parvati was with Shiva. Heck, Kali isn't also just some spawn of Parvati's, but literally just Parvati flying into a berserk rage and incarnating herself as righteous fury and bloodthirsty violence, drawing on the fact that she's basically Shiva's wife and thus also a Goddess of Destruction... when she chooses to be, because she's otherwise perfectly happy being a peaceful homemaker and devoted wife whose presence effectively enhanced Shiva's ability to do his job as a God of Time and Destruction. The idea that Parvati and Shiva have a love/hate relationship is kinda ridiculous, considering how their most significant tiff pretty much involved Shiva's inability to knock when entering the bathrooms in his own house (which resulted in Ganesha's origin story).

Seriously, that was pretty much the only significant issue I can remember them ever having in their marriage. That and the fact that Shiva is sometimes really focused in his meditations and is super-serious about them, but needs reminding that he's also a family-man and needs to spend some time doing something other than just doing his ascetic-hermit-thing. Otherwise, they're basically supposed to be very much in love with each other.

Though, granted, Shiva being super-edgy and all about destroying and fighting things isn't in character either - the guy's the ascetic. A warrior-sage, sure, but still, his whole deal is that he tends to just sit around on Mount Kailash, meditating and cultivating the power of the cosmos to ensure that everything is proceeding in accordance with universal regulations... and then obliterating any opposition to Dharma through subtle manipulations or overt, all-encompassing destructive force so that the old is cleared out to make way for new creations. Also, the Pinaka is the name of Shiva's bow, not his Trident. His Trident is just called the "Trishula of Shiva"... which basically just means "Trident of Shiva" because there was never any need for it to have a special name — as far as the ancient Hindus were concerned, Shiva had it first, and all others are named after his. And the whole "could go berserk at any moment" thing is just... way out of proportion. Sure, he's got a temper, but that's mostly because the myths that involve his anger usually involve someone doing something so outrageously stupid or evil that they piss him off and invite the fury of a God of Destruction... whose incarnations/alter-egos also include Rudra, a God of Storms, Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Various Calamities and Natural Disasters. He Also happens to be a God of Time on account of the fact that he's basically entropy personified, the universal destruction and dissolution of all that exist as time moves forward so that all is destroyed and rebuilt anew. Does he have a temper that tends to feature prominently in the mythology? Yes. Why? Because otherwise, he's just sitting on his mountain, minding his own business and not actually doing much that people can see because he's busy meditating and organizing things on a cosmic scale beyond human comprehension. So myths can only really feature him if someone does something to piss him off (thus causing him to act) or do something impressive to please him (in which case he usually is pretty lavish with rewards).

Similarly Ravana doesn't hate all the Indian Gods - he just hates the Devas because the Devas tend to be assholes to Rakshasas. But, Ravana is otherwise one of the biggest devotees of Shiva - this is a major deal: Ravana got his sword "Chandrahas/Laughing-Moon" from Shiva as a gift after he earned redemption when Shiva humbled him for his arrogance and converted Ravana into his devotee - and even got blessings and spell-knowledge from Brahma once. I doubt any game books ever bothered to give him skill in music, do they? The guy's famous as a musician too, for a demon-lord, as he is legendarily skilled at singing and in playing the veena (it was part of how he earned his redemption and Shiva's sword, you know).

Also, Skanda is a spear-wielder in Hindu mythology. The sword-wielding is from the Buddhist take on him. He also rides a peacock and is otherwise quite awesome as a philosopher-warrior, poet-saint and all-round demon slayer. Not sure about the whole "can't use magic" thing, but him being a martial-arts badass tracks. Him being obsessed with combat is a bit weird, though... like mentioned, he's famous as a muse for poets and a reknowned philosopher (though his brother, Ganesha, has him beat on that front in terms of scholarly legend).

And like you mentioned, the write-up they gave for Saraswati just does not track with the mythology as far as I can tell...

That's about it off the top of my head, to be honest. I'd need to do a deep-dive later, but yeah... Carella did his best to make them super-powerful... but screwed up a bunch on the details, damn it!
KENMA!!!!

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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Nagas! Evil Immortals! Odin!)

Post by ChriswJ »

Were the Egyptian gods in this book?
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Yama! Ravana! Kumbakarna! Nagas!)

Post by kenmadragon »

catsi563 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:35 pm
kenmadragon wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:52 am
KENMA!!!!

^RAWR POUNCE TACKLE HUGGLE GLOMP!!!*
Hey catsi! Been a while!

I'm afraid I got lost on the road of life... but now I'm trying to get back into M&M and PbP gaming, so yeah! I'm back! :D

Hopefully things don't happen that make me lost again! :mrgreen:
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Nagas! Evil Immortals! Odin!)

Post by Ares »

ChriswJ wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:27 pm Were the Egyptian gods in this book?
Nope, they were already statted out in Rifts Africa.
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Nagas! Evil Immortals! Odin!)

Post by Jabroniville »

ChriswJ wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:27 pm Were the Egyptian gods in this book?
I think I'm going to go through the older books to stat those characters once I'm done with this one. Now that I have the template down it will be a lot easier.
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Nagas! Evil Immortals! Odin!)

Post by ChriswJ »

Ok thanks
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Sleipnir

Post by Jabroniville »

SLEIPNIR
Role:
Godly Mount
PL 12 (179)
STRENGTH
10 STAMINA 12 AGILITY 1
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 5 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 6 (+11)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+5)
Expertise (Survival) 2 (+3)
Insight 3 (+4)
Intimidation 6 (+4, +5 Size)
Perception 6 (+7)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Attractive (To Women), Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Hooves), Power Attack

Powers:
"Animal Senses" Senses 3 (Acute Scent, Low-Light Vision, Radius Sight) [3]
Flight 6 (120 mph) (12) -- [14]
  • AE: Speed 6 (120 mph) (6)
  • AE: Leaping 4 (120 mph) (4)
"Natural Size" Growth 2 (Str & Sta +2, +2 Mass, +1 Intimidation, -1 Dodge/Parry, -2 Stealth) -- (10 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [5]
"Hooves" Strength-Damage +3 (Feats: Reach) [4]
Protection 6 [6]
Regeneration 6 [6]

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Hooves +11 (+13 Damage, DC 28)
Initiative +1

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +7, Fortitude +12, Will +8

Complications:
Disabled (Animal)- Horses cannot speak to humans, nor use their hooves to easily manipulate objects.

Total: Abilities: 80 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 38 / Defenses: 14 (179)

-Sleipnir is the same eight-legged horse as always, and brutally-powerful- a PL 12 speedster. The book actually points out that Loki was dismayed to become pregnant by a horse and the other gods laughed at him for it.

RAVENS (2)
Role:
Odin's Familiars
PL 8 (112)
PL 11 (112) Defensively
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 9 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Aerobatics 6 (+6)
Expertise (Survival) 6 (+10)
Perception 4 (+6)
Sleight of Beak 6 (+6)

Advantages:
Close Attack 4, Inventor

Powers:
"Animal Senses" Senses 4 (Extended Scent, Darkvision, Extended Vision) [4]
Flight 4 (30 mph) (Flaws: Winged) [4]
Immunity 5 (Fire Damage) [5]
"Beak" Strength-Damage +1 [1]

"Tiny Size" Shrinking 8 (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) -- (1 foot) [17]
(-2 Strength, +4 Defenses, +8 Stealth, -4 Intimidation, -1 Speed)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Beak +10 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +9, Fortitude +9, Will +7

Complications:
Disabled (Animal)- Birds cannot use their wings & beaks to easily manipulate objects.

Total: Abilities: 58 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 31 / Defenses: 7 (112)

-Odin's Ravens are not named in the book, and are said to give advice to those he favors, and may lead others to their doom. They also spy and scout for their master (in the myths, they were to hear all rumors and whisper them to Odin). They are light M.D.C. beings and not terrific fighters, but have some capability.
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Tyr

Post by Jabroniville »

TYR
Role:
God of Justice
PL 14 (291)
(PL 19 Defensively, PL 21 in Asgard)
STRENGTH
12 STAMINA 15 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 14 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 8 AWARENESS 10 PRESENCE 5

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Benefit 4 (God), Power Attack, Ranged Attack 10, Startle

Powers:
"Godly Longevity" Immunity 11 (Aging, Life Support) [11]
"Mega-Damage Being" Protection 5 [5]
"Norse Durability" Protection 4 (Flaws: Limited to Asgard) [2]
Speed 4 (30 mph) [4]

"Godly Abilities"
Regeneration 8 (Feats: Regrows Limbs) [9]
Senses 2 (Low-Light Vision, Extended Vision) [2]
"See the Invisible" Senses 4 (Vision Counters Concealment) [4]

Teleport 15 (Extras: Extended, Accurate) (60) -- [61]
  • AE: Movement 3 (Dimensional Travel 3) (6)
"Silver Spear" (Feats: Sentient) (Flaws: Easily Removable) [22]
"Thrown Spear" Blast 14 (Feats: Extended Range 2) (30) -- (31)
  • AE: Strength-Damage +2 (2)
Spells: Invulnerability, Impervious to Energy, Fireball, Call Lightning, Minor Curse, Mystic Portal (3/day)
-- (35 points)

"Magic" (All Spells Level 1-8)
"Psionics" (Mind Block, Sixth Sense)

Offense:
Unarmed +14 (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Silver Spear +14 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Thrown Spear +14 (+14 Ranged Damage, DC 29)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +17 (DC 27), Parry +17 (DC 27), Toughness +20 (+24 in Asgard), Fortitude +15, Will +12

Complications:
Obsession (Justice)- Tyr hates lies, even those told by his father Odin.

Total: Abilities: 136 / Skills: 00--0 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 120 / Defenses: 18 (291)

-Tyr is given pretty weaksauce art- he's a one-armed man in a generic tunic, looking more like some normal guy than a powerful God of War & Justice. Most of the focus here is given to his hatred of lies- when Fenrir allowed himself to be bound by an unbreakable thread, he insisted Tyr put his hand in Fenrir's mouth as a guarantee for his freedom- when the Gods revealed their deception and that he was trapped forever, the wolf bit Tyr's hand off.

-Tyr is a strong fighter who hits PL 14 easily, having only five attacks but +7 to hit and a fantastic +11 to defenses, plus durability that nearly matches Thor. Good spells and the same absurd mental stats that Odin has, too.
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Yama! Ravana! Kumbakarna! Nagas!)

Post by catsi563 »

kenmadragon wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:57 pm
catsi563 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:35 pm
kenmadragon wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:52 am
KENMA!!!!

^RAWR POUNCE TACKLE HUGGLE GLOMP!!!*
Hey catsi! Been a while!

I'm afraid I got lost on the road of life... but now I'm trying to get back into M&M and PbP gaming, so yeah! I'm back! :D

Hopefully things don't happen that make me lost again! :mrgreen:
Sweet
and while we have you back I was curious Jab brought up a discussion that was had when he was statting the hindu gods a while back, I asked a question but you didnt get the chance to answer and was still curious
L-Also Ken I was curious about something I read that Hinduism has an interesting contradiction, In that technically there is no Heaven or Hell in Hindu mythos while simultaneously the myths reference people and gods going to both.

Ive come to somewhat understand that heaven and hell are not in Hinduism the same as other myths (ie places of punishment or reward) but more like celestial waiting rooms for lack of better description while the soul cycles back into what ever form its supposed to or moves on into final nirvana. thoughts?
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Re: Sleipnir

Post by catsi563 »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:39 am SLEIPNIR
Role:
Godly Mount
PL 12 (179)
STRENGTH
10 STAMINA 12 AGILITY 1
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 5 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 6 (+11)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+5)
Expertise (Survival) 2 (+3)
Insight 3 (+4)
Intimidation 6 (+4, +5 Size)
Perception 6 (+7)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Attractive (To Women), Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Hooves), Power Attack

Powers:
"Animal Senses" Senses 3 (Acute Scent, Low-Light Vision, Radius Sight) [3]
Flight 6 (120 mph) (12) -- [14]
  • AE: Speed 6 (120 mph) (6)
  • AE: Leaping 4 (120 mph) (4)
"Natural Size" Growth 2 (Str & Sta +2, +2 Mass, +1 Intimidation, -1 Dodge/Parry, -2 Stealth) -- (10 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [5]
"Hooves" Strength-Damage +3 (Feats: Reach) [4]
Protection 6 [6]
Regeneration 6 [6]

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Hooves +11 (+13 Damage, DC 28)
Initiative +1

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +7, Fortitude +12, Will +8

Complications:
Disabled (Animal)- Horses cannot speak to humans, nor use their hooves to easily manipulate objects.

Total: Abilities: 80 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 38 / Defenses: 14 (179)

-Sleipnir is the same eight-legged horse as always, and brutally-powerful- a PL 12 speedster. The book actually points out that Loki was dismayed to become pregnant by a horse and the other gods laughed at him for it.

RAVENS (2)
Role:
Odin's Familiars
PL 8 (112)
PL 11 (112) Defensively
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 9 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Aerobatics 6 (+6)
Expertise (Survival) 6 (+10)
Perception 4 (+6)
Sleight of Beak 6 (+6)

Advantages:
Close Attack 4, Inventor

Powers:
"Animal Senses" Senses 4 (Extended Scent, Darkvision, Extended Vision) [4]
Flight 4 (30 mph) (Flaws: Winged) [4]
Immunity 5 (Fire Damage) [5]
"Beak" Strength-Damage +1 [1]

"Tiny Size" Shrinking 8 (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) -- (1 foot) [17]
(-2 Strength, +4 Defenses, +8 Stealth, -4 Intimidation, -1 Speed)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Beak +10 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +9, Fortitude +9, Will +7

Complications:
Disabled (Animal)- Birds cannot use their wings & beaks to easily manipulate objects.

Total: Abilities: 58 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 31 / Defenses: 7 (112)

-Odin's Ravens are not named in the book, and are said to give advice to those he favors, and may lead others to their doom. They also spy and scout for their master (in the myths, they were to hear all rumors and whisper them to Odin). They are light M.D.C. beings and not terrific fighters, but have some capability.
which is interesting because the Dresden files makes them out to be monsterous fighters capable of tearing apart any number of things
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Nagas! Evil Immortals! Odin!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Okay, so setting up what these ludicrous attack numbers and bonuses mean has led to me restructuring my "Upper Tier" accuracy set-ups, and as such, the early "Powerhouse Book", Rifts Atlantis, needs to be shifted around a bit. Mainly because guys with 8-10 attacks were not part of my initial thought processes so I just kind of guessed where they should be instead of having a real system in place. So I went through the whole book and added up attack values, and have adjusted guys accordingly:

* Splugorth retain their basic PL, mostly because their accuracy is now boosted by +6, hitting PL 16 standards. Defensively, however, they are now PL 20!

* Splugorth Conservators, with eight attacks, now have a huge +16 to hit, making them PL 15 guys unarmed, PL 16 defensively!

* Augmented Kydians get +1 to hit, only going up a half a PL.

* With ten attacks, the Splugorth Slaver takes a HUGE jump, becoming a +18 hitter. It jumps PL +4, becoming PL 16 instead of 12.

* Murex Metzlas gain +6 to hit, becoming PL 18 creatures with PL 20 defenses! Volute Metzlas gain +2 to hit and PL +1, PL 15 offensively & PL 18 defensively. Murvolva Metzlas gain +1 to hit and PL +2, becoming PL 14 offensively, PL 15 defensively. Murmova Metzlas gain +4 to hit and gain PL +2-4 (PL 12, PL 14 Defensively)!

* The Kreelong Carapace gains +2 to hit and far improved defenses, hitting PL 13 offensively & PL 16 defensively. The Kreewar Carapace gains +3 to hit and far improved defenses, hitting PL 15 offensively & PL 17 defensively.

* Shaydorian Spherian R.C.C. gains +5 FIGHTING & Defenses. The Intels gain +2.

* The Yll Tree Climber gains +2 accuracy. No change in PL.

* Adaroks gain +2 accuracy, boosting their PL by 1 offensively, and +2 defensively.

-Curiously, this means that Splugorth Conservators, Slavers and Metzlas are now WELL within the bounds of any pantheon's Gods! PL 14-18 for some of them! This means that, while Gods are tough, they certainly couldn't attack Atlantis and have a hope of winning.
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Yama! Ravana! Kumbakarna! Nagas!)

Post by kenmadragon »

catsi563 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:41 am
kenmadragon wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:57 pm
catsi563 wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:35 pm

KENMA!!!!

^RAWR POUNCE TACKLE HUGGLE GLOMP!!!*
Hey catsi! Been a while!

I'm afraid I got lost on the road of life... but now I'm trying to get back into M&M and PbP gaming, so yeah! I'm back! :D

Hopefully things don't happen that make me lost again! :mrgreen:
Sweet
and while we have you back I was curious Jab brought up a discussion that was had when he was statting the hindu gods a while back, I asked a question but you didnt get the chance to answer and was still curious
L-Also Ken I was curious about something I read that Hinduism has an interesting contradiction, In that technically there is no Heaven or Hell in Hindu mythos while simultaneously the myths reference people and gods going to both.

Ive come to somewhat understand that heaven and hell are not in Hinduism the same as other myths (ie places of punishment or reward) but more like celestial waiting rooms for lack of better description while the soul cycles back into what ever form its supposed to or moves on into final nirvana. thoughts?
Ah. Good question. The short answer is that "it depends". The really old manuscripts sometimes contradict each other on the exact details, so the exact number of "worlds" differs based on the text you're referring to. Buddhism and Jainism, as offshoots of Hinduism, can sometimes confuse this matter further as they have different takes on the same concepts and ideas.

In general, it's easy to visualize it as Three Worlds - the Heavenly Realm, the Mortal Realm and the Nether Realm. Note that these are not places that correspond to similar realms as understood by Abrahamic religions. The Heavenly Realm is not the realm where souls are rewarded, but simply the realm of Devas, gods and their attendants, and other heavenly-beings. Similarly, the Nether Realms is not (necessarily) the realm where souls are punished but the realm where demons and devils and various other forces of similar natures dwell. Sure, souls will pass through these realms and be rewarded/punished based on various circumstances and interactions, but that's because the areas where such rewards/punishments take place are found within these Realms. But otherwise, it's fairly straightfoward - the Heavenly Realm is where those of benevolent nature make their residence, the Nether Realm is where those of malevolent nature make their residence, and the Mortal Realm is, well, the world in which we humans live in (and all parallel realities and stuff).

Even more complicated is the fact that these Three Worlds are further sub-divided into "Lokas" (or "planes" in the D&D-sense), where the Heavenly Realm is divided into 7 lokas (the Vyahrtis) and the Nether Realm is divided into another 7 lokas (the Patalas). Each Loka is essentially an "infinite" plane, but also bounded in that they're layered - the patalas are "below" the mortal world, while the vyahrtis are "above", resulting in a multi-layered planar topology of infinite planes stacked and bound by the cosmic sphere... though there are realms/planetary-bodies beyond the planar-sphere, but really, that's a whole 'nother matter entirely. Also, be aware that as each loka is essentially another infinite plane, it may have sub-layers of its own that form entire worlds and the like which constitute different kinds of heavens and hells and other realms of demons and gods and all manner of beings in between and beyond, as suit the needs and wishes of the rulers of such realms.

Another thing to remember is that souls in HInduism don't really have a final destination... not ultimately, anyways. They're bound in the cycle of reincarnation - Samsara - as determined by their Karma and all that. But there are various states in which the soul must exist as part of the cycle, some of which would resemble the "heavens" and 'hells" as recognizable by Abrahamic religions. Souls that are being rewarded along their journey through samsara might spend time being lavished in splendor and bliss of the upper realms and heavens (Svarga), whereas a wicked soul of bad karma might find themselves spending time in a particularly miserable area of the lower realms and hells (Naraka/Yamalok) where they are tormented. This lasts for a certain quantum of time based on karma and other factors before the soul is eventually prepared for the next stage of Samsara.

"Celestial Waiting Rooms" isn't a terrible analogy... but it's incomplete. It forgets that they are indeed places of reward and punishment and everything in between - souls dwell there in states of bliss and agony throughout their journey along the cycle of Samsara. Also, the quantum of time they spend there is considerable, as such periods are measured by the cosmic scale of time, not a human one. It also forgets that they're multi-layered, multi-world realms of existence which serve as the home for demons and gods (and all in between and beyond either) alike who have their own domains within the Three Worlds to rule over. In general, most of Hindu mythology, when referring to Heaven and Hell as part of the Three Worlds, tend to be referring to their nature as the dwellings of gods and demons and their vast empires across the cosmic realms, divided only by lineage, disposition and various other divine politics of supernatural beings. When a character is journeying through "Heaven", they're quite literally journeying through the heavenly realms of celestial bliss and domains of various gods and god-beings, while those that venture through "Hell" walk through the punishment realms and vicious empires of devils and demon-gods and what-not.

Probably a lot more information than was necessary to answer the question, but I hope it clarified things. I'm not the most astute religious scholar, but the benefits of growing up with fairly religious parents, aunts/uncles and very religious grand-parents means that I remember the answers that I got to questions just like this when I asked them as a kid.
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Ares
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Re: Jab's Rifts Builds (Yama! Ravana! Kumbakarna! Nagas!)

Post by Ares »

kenmadragon wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:52 am
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:23 am And with that, the Hindu Pantheon is done! Naturally many characters were changed (Some, big-time), but there's an odd sense here that Carella is a MUCH bigger fan of the Indian Gods than the others, or at least wanted to appease anyone who was offended by going "SEE?!? I made them the STRONGEST ones!".
He still got a bunch of the little details wrong, or just flat-out changed some of them. Like, sure, they're fitting their mythological powers of "holy shit, that guy did what? Why the hell are these dudes throwing around planet-busting spells and weapons like they're party favors?!?!" but the relationships between them seem a bit off: Like, for example, Parvati was the one who chased after Shiva, and is literally the goddess of marital bliss and fidelity because of that. Her beginning to fall in love with Agni doesn't really track with the myths, given how obsessed Parvati was with Shiva. Heck, Kali isn't also just some spawn of Parvati's, but literally just Parvati flying into a berserk rage and incarnating herself as righteous fury and bloodthirsty violence, drawing on the fact that she's basically Shiva's wife and thus also a Goddess of Destruction... when she chooses to be, because she's otherwise perfectly happy being a peaceful homemaker and devoted wife whose presence effectively enhanced Shiva's ability to do his job as a God of Time and Destruction. The idea that Parvati and Shiva have a love/hate relationship is kinda ridiculous, considering how their most significant tiff pretty much involved Shiva's inability to knock when entering the bathrooms in his own house (which resulted in Ganesha's origin story).

Seriously, that was pretty much the only significant issue I can remember them ever having in their marriage. That and the fact that Shiva is sometimes really focused in his meditations and is super-serious about them, but needs reminding that he's also a family-man and needs to spend some time doing something other than just doing his ascetic-hermit-thing. Otherwise, they're basically supposed to be very much in love with each other.

Though, granted, Shiva being super-edgy and all about destroying and fighting things isn't in character either - the guy's the ascetic. A warrior-sage, sure, but still, his whole deal is that he tends to just sit around on Mount Kailash, meditating and cultivating the power of the cosmos to ensure that everything is proceeding in accordance with universal regulations... and then obliterating any opposition to Dharma through subtle manipulations or overt, all-encompassing destructive force so that the old is cleared out to make way for new creations. Also, the Pinaka is the name of Shiva's bow, not his Trident. His Trident is just called the "Trishula of Shiva"... which basically just means "Trident of Shiva" because there was never any need for it to have a special name — as far as the ancient Hindus were concerned, Shiva had it first, and all others are named after his. And the whole "could go berserk at any moment" thing is just... way out of proportion. Sure, he's got a temper, but that's mostly because the myths that involve his anger usually involve someone doing something so outrageously stupid or evil that they piss him off and invite the fury of a God of Destruction... whose incarnations/alter-egos also include Rudra, a God of Storms, Earthquakes, Tornadoes, Various Calamities and Natural Disasters. He Also happens to be a God of Time on account of the fact that he's basically entropy personified, the universal destruction and dissolution of all that exist as time moves forward so that all is destroyed and rebuilt anew. Does he have a temper that tends to feature prominently in the mythology? Yes. Why? Because otherwise, he's just sitting on his mountain, minding his own business and not actually doing much that people can see because he's busy meditating and organizing things on a cosmic scale beyond human comprehension. So myths can only really feature him if someone does something to piss him off (thus causing him to act) or do something impressive to please him (in which case he usually is pretty lavish with rewards).

Similarly Ravana doesn't hate all the Indian Gods - he just hates the Devas because the Devas tend to be assholes to Rakshasas. But, Ravana is otherwise one of the biggest devotees of Shiva - this is a major deal: Ravana got his sword "Chandrahas/Laughing-Moon" from Shiva as a gift after he earned redemption when Shiva humbled him for his arrogance and converted Ravana into his devotee - and even got blessings and spell-knowledge from Brahma once. I doubt any game books ever bothered to give him skill in music, do they? The guy's famous as a musician too, for a demon-lord, as he is legendarily skilled at singing and in playing the veena (it was part of how he earned his redemption and Shiva's sword, you know).

Also, Skanda is a spear-wielder in Hindu mythology. The sword-wielding is from the Buddhist take on him. He also rides a peacock and is otherwise quite awesome as a philosopher-warrior, poet-saint and all-round demon slayer. Not sure about the whole "can't use magic" thing, but him being a martial-arts badass tracks. Him being obsessed with combat is a bit weird, though... like mentioned, he's famous as a muse for poets and a reknowned philosopher (though his brother, Ganesha, has him beat on that front in terms of scholarly legend).

And like you mentioned, the write-up they gave for Saraswati just does not track with the mythology as far as I can tell...

That's about it off the top of my head, to be honest. I'd need to do a deep-dive later, but yeah... Carella did his best to make them super-powerful... but screwed up a bunch on the details, damn it!
I'm wondering how much of this was "got it wrong because, at the time especially, Hindu mythology was less well known" and how much of it was "got it wrong because we changed it to make it clearly different from the actual religion and to fit the Rifts setting". Sort of like how when Stan and Jack adapted the Norse mythos to the Marvel Universe, it was less them "getting stuff wrong" and more "we're changing the mythology to fit the Marvel Universe".

I find Hindu religion/philosophy/theology/mythology fascinating, largely because I know so little about it, but what I do know is pretty cool. Things like astras, basically these magical weapons that are summoned via spells/chants/gestures, the whole avatar concept, etc. From my limited understanding, it could be considered that everyone is basically an avatar of some greater force and everything is connected to each other.

Are there any good books that can serve as a "Hindu Religion/Mythology/Stories for Dummies"? I grew up reading D'Aulaires' Books of Greek Myths and Norse Myths, which helped cement my love of old school mythology early on. I've since gotten familiar with Egyptian, Aztec, Chinese and Japanese mythology, but there's still several mythologies like Celtic, greater Africa, Native American stories, etc. Hindu religion/mythology is right up there, though I want to be clear I mean no disrespect calling it "mythology", given it's actively practiced today. Regardless, any good reading suggestions would be welcome.
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Harnos
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Re: Splugorth Slaver

Post by Harnos »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:53 am Image

SPLUGORTH SLAVER
Role:
The Thing on the Cover, Slave Master
PL 16 (284)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 18 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Expertise (Slaver) 8 (+8)
Intimidation 11 (+10)
Perception 7 (+10)
Technology 3 (+3)
Vehicles 3 (+7)

Advantages:
Benefit (Ambidexterity), Equipment 10 ("Forearm Blaster" Blast 12, Tons of Bio-Wizard Stuff), Fast Grab, Improved Hold, Languages 2 (a few), Ranged Attack 14

Powers:
"Eight Tentacles" Extra Limbs 8 [8]
"Great Reach" Reach 1 [1]
"Serpentine Body" Movement 2 (Slithering, Aquatic) [4]
"Actually Aquatic, I Guess" Immunity 2 (Drowning, Pressure) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [1]
Swimming 4 [4]
"Claws" Strength-Damage +2 [2]
Growth 2 (Str & Sta +2, +2 Mass, +2 Intimidation, -1 Dodge/Parry, -2 Stealth) -- (10 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [5]
Senses 2 (Extended Scent 2) [2]

"Built-In Sensors"
Senses 1 (Radius Sight) [1]
Remote Senses 5 (Vision) (Flaws: Limited to Eyes of Eylor & Barge) [5]

"Eye of Eylor" Senses 7 (Extended Vision 2, Microvision 2, Direction Sense, Detect Magic- Ranged) [7]

"The Staff of Eylor" (Feats: Restricted to Bonded Slaver 2, Intelligent 2, Recovers Damage, Reappears After 1 Day) (Flaws: Easily Removable) (Quirks: Damage to Staff Hurts User) [42]
"Negate Magic" Nullify Magic 10 (Extras: Ranged, Broad, Simultaneous) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2) (20) -- (29)
  • AE: "Repel Animals" Affliction 10 (Will; Entranced/Compelled/Controlled) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst, Cumulative) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2, Limited to Animals, Limited to Leaving Area) (3)
  • AE: "Befuddle" Affliction 8 (Will; Dazed & Vulnerable/Stunned & Defenseless) (Extras: Ranged, Extra Condition) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2, Limited Degree) (Wears off in 16 Minutes -1) (3)
  • AE: "Extinguish Fire" Nullify Fire 8 (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2) (2)
  • AE: "Call Lightning" Blast 14 (Feats: Extended Ranged 2) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2) (9)
  • AE: "Energy Disruption" Affliction 10 (Tech Skill of Creator; Dazed & Impaired/Stunned & Disabled/Incapacitated) (Ranged, Extra Condition, Cumulative) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2, Limited to Tech) (10)
  • AE: "Dispel Magical Barriers" Nullify Magic Barriers 10 (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2) (3)
  • AE: "Oracle" Senses 4 (Precognition) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2) (1)
"Chameleon" Concealment 2 (Visuals) (Extras: Affects Others) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2, Blending) (1)
"Tongues" Comprehend 2 (All Languages) (Extras: Affects Others) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2) (1)
"Fear" Affliction 10 (Will; Dazed/Compelled/Controlled) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst, Ranged, Continuous +3) (Flaws: Unreliable- 2/day -2, Limited to 8 Minutes) (30)
-- (59 points)

"Slave Barge"
Flight 4 (30 mph) [8]

"Psionics"
"Blinding Flash" Dazzle Visuals 8 (Extras: Area- 15ft. Burst) (20) -- [23]
  • AE: "Globe of Daylight" Environment 2 (Light) (4)
  • AE: "Telepathy" Mind-Reading 6 (Flaws: Source- Slave Barge) Linked to Communication 2 (Mental) (Flaws: Limited to Brief Messages) (10)
  • AE: "Mind Block" Immunity 10 (Mental Powers) (Flaws: Limited to Mental Intrusion, Limited to 10 Minutes, Side-Effect- Cannot Use Other Psionics) (3)
"Armor of Ithan"
Protection 2 (Extras: Impervious 5) [7]
Immunity 20 (Magic, Fire, Lightning) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [10]
Regeneration 10 [10]

Offense:
Unarmed +18 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Claws +18 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Blaster +18 (+12 Ranged Damage, DC 27)
Call Lightning +18 (+14 Ranged Damage, DC 29)
Energy Disruption +18 (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Befuddle +18 (+8 Ranged Affliction, DC 18)
Repel Animals +10 Area (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Extinguish +10 (+8 Nullify, DC 18)
Negate Magic +10 Area (+10 Nullify, DC 20)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +22 (DC 32), Toughness +8 (+10 Armor of Ithan), Fortitude +8, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Greed & Power)
Power Loss (Slave Barge Powers)- Destroying the Slave Barge removes the Psychic Powers, Blinding Flash & Globe of Daylight, as well as the Armor of Ithan

Total: Abilities: 78 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 29 / Powers: 140 / Defenses: 21 (284)

-Most fans initially assumed that the "Splugorth" spoken of in much of the Rifts fluff was that thing on the front cover of the Main Rulebook- a giant, tentacled dude with a reptilian face, flanked by thong-clad bald ladies in the most "Sci-Fi Heavy Metal Album" cover yet seen in gaming. But nope- that thing is a Splugorth Slaver, which was detailed in a later book (a curious, possibly savvy, way to not give away EVERYTHING in the first book).

-Sadly, the damn thing only gets three paragraphs. Much of which explains that many people IN-UNIVERSE mistake these guys for Sploogs, too, and have been given nicknames like that as a result. And the rest is just an explanation of their appearance and powers. So if you were hoping for any kind of in-depth world-building bio for THE THING ON THE COVER, you'd be sorely disappointed.

-The Slaver itself is a character with a TON of attacks, okay damage-dealing, and a really solid Blaster, but nothing you'd really be that terrified of except for two shots of "Call Lightning" (at "Eighth-Level" capability, it does 8D6 Damage, or +14 in my stats)- it's really not a heavy-hitter. The REALLY challenging thing is that it has a constantly-regenerating version of the "Armor of Ithan" spell, regenerating 120 MDC once a round. Which means you basically have to do a ton of damage to have a hope of hurting it. The thing is... a Glitter Boy could handle that himself. There's also an odd amount of useless SDC Damage on his build, as his tentacles do that, as do the Blasters on his Barge. I mean, NOTHING does SDC in this system! It's weird. Though now that I think about it... it's probably because he's a SLAVE-CATCHER, not a Slave-SQUASHER- he's probably out to capture people, which is impossible when you "mist" them with a Mega-Damage weapon.

-The Splugorth Slaver has a ton of stuff on him, but he's pretty stupid- no bonuses to INT or anything, and no Skills given. He's just this drooling slave-catcher (who notably has nowhere to put his slaves, so I guess he better hope he's got some mobile jail cells with him). HOWEVER, he's got Eyes of Eylor and Remote Senses to make him impossible to sneak up on, Half-Immunities from the Armor of Ithan, Flight (he's symbiotically connected to his Barge, so it's not a Device), and the "Staff of Eylor", which comes with numerous Spells built into it. However, each one can only be cast twice per day, which is super-limiting. They contain a powerful version of Call Lightning (since all spells are 8th Level), Negate Magic and Befuddle, though most of the other Spells are more for versatility as much as anything.

-Ultimately, a Splugorth Slaver is a PL 15 fighter (nothing to sneeze at, to be sure!) with a two-shot PL 16 attack, and the primary advantage of being hard to kill- while its Toughness is abysmal for the system, having ten attacks and +10 to parry is nuts.
A universe where the mid-level minions reach PL 16... My first instinct wouldn't be playing a rogue scholar.
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